Controversies
Dec. 9th, 2003 12:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakI come offering debates: gacked from ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
melymbrosia, hesychasm talks about the problematical side of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials here.
latcxvi makes a case for law enforcers in general and Norrington vs the Pirates of the Caribbean in particular here.
And thanks tolondonkds, we're having a lively debate about Chimera at DS9agogo.
Speaking of DS9, I finished the sixth season. Now we come to a couple of episodes which have little in common except that I consider them well-written in themselves but problematic in terms of continuity.
His Way: Either due to my change of attitude towards O/K in season 7 or due to a recent viewing of Love Actually, this didn't make me cringe anymore. By itself, it's a charming romantic comedy, everyone delivers great performances, the kiss is certainly one of ST's most memorable, so is Nana Visitor's rendition of Fever, and her "Who needs dinner anyway" line.
But. I still think that O/K in season 6 (not 7) was a massive cop-out on the part of the writers, and a mistake. Odo's actions during the occupation six parter had zero results and consequences. They might as well not have happened. The only episode where Kira feels the slightest bit uneasy about them is the You are cordially invited and that's settled with an off-screen talk. As for Odo? We never see him pondering the fact that he could through his ethics into the wind and that the only thing - really the only thing - which made him reconsider was love for Kira, and an immediate threat to her. Not his friendships with the rest of the people on the station. Not his sense of justice. If Kira hadn't been arrested, Rom would be dead, and the Dominion still in charge of DS9 if it had been up to Odo. That was a huge thing in terms of character development - and then they didn't follow it up. Not with anything. And consider it from the pov of Kira's character. Given Kira's attitude towards her own mother in the same season and only two episodes before His Way happens, her complete lack of issues with Odo makes her look like an utter hypocrite, and I don't like to see Kira as a hypocrite. (More about this later.)
What I would have liked to have seen: Odo and Kira slowly rebuilding their relationship. With a much longer uneasiness, not uneasiness due to Odo's love for Kira but uneasiness due to Odo's actions and what they imply - that his sense of loyalties is only tied to one person, which is not what he believed of himself, or she believed of himself, before. And a longer time for Kira to realise that yes, maybe she can see Odo not as a platonic friend but as someone romantically/sexually attractive.
The Sound of her Voice: no complaints here. The never seen Lisa is probably my favourite human redshirt. I really hoped they'd save her, and could believe the crew establishing a relationship with her. And not surprisingly, I loved, loved, loved the subplot in which Odo lets Quark be successful with a scheme as a silent thank you for the emotional support during the Unreachable Kira years.
And now the thing you've all beennot been waiting for. My least favourite DS9 plot and change of characterisation. Evil!Dukat makes his entrance. He does so in Waltz, which by itself is incidentally an excellent episode - a plot revolving around basically two people in a room has to be both well written and well acted to succeed, and succeed it does. In terms of continuity, alas, it's the writers taking what used to be a three dimensional character and reducing him to the black-in-black villain of a melodrama.
You notice the chance from the very first scene onwards in terms of direction and music. Sisko going to visit Dukat is basically Clarice Starling, or Will Whats-his-name from Red Dragon/Manhunter going to visit Hannibal Lecter. Complete with the somewhat bewildering change of Dukat suddenly addressing Sisko with his first name. It increases the creepy psychopath aura but comes totally out of the blue - Dukat never did that before. (He did call Kira "Nerys" on occasion, though far often "Major"; Sisko he always addressed as "Commander" and later Captain.) But then, that's not surprising. Old Dukat, even when presented as utterly and completely wrong/ruthless/the antagonist - as in, say, the season 2 episode Cardassians -, was never creepy, or psychotic. He didn't have to be. He was an antagonist with plausible motives (in the case of Cardassians, revenge against a political enemy and not caring who suffered for it). New Dukat has to be EEEEEEEEEVIL, and hey, that creepy psycho element always helps with such things.
The visualisation of Dukat's psychosis by Weyoun, Damar and Kira as conflicting voices in his head - admiring Damar is his ego, Weyoun is his doubts and Kira is downright self-loathing - is well done and of the three, Nana Visitor plays most intensely and again rocks in her performance. It's also not thought through because if "Kira" is symbolizing Dukat's self hatred, why is she still there at the end when he's resolved on his EEEEEEVIL path and from what we see in the rest of the show happy on it?
(Again, I can't help but compare and contrast with Babylon 5. In season 5's The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari we also have various people in Londo's life taking on various aspects in his head. But then Londo (who considering the death toll in the Narn/Centauri war has probably as much blood on his hands as Dukat) was never reduced to a psychopath, or the villain in a melodrama. JMS very easily could have gone the E!Londo route. He did not.)
The mini version of the Nuremberg Trials again makes me frustrated beyond belief because you see, one of the crucial points of the Nuremberg Trials was that the people accused weren't, by and large, raving psychopaths. They brought up some of the same self-justifications Dukat does ("had my orders", "was provoked", etc.), but the truly frightening thing wasn't that they were certifiable but that they were sane.
Incidentally, I'm curious about the hearing Dukat was on his way towards and Sisko was going to testify for. Because I wonder - if the accusation was for war crimes during his time as prefect of Bajor, why was it a Federation and not a Bajoran trial, and why on earth was Sisko going to be a witness? He wasn't present during the occupation. Moreover, everything Dukat did during the Occupation was well known to the Federation before, and I didn't notice any attempt to arrest him and put him on trial during the numerous times Dukat visited the station in seasons 2-5. If it was going to be a trial dealing with Dukat's acts since he joined the Dominion, otoh, we're in even more murky legal territory, because from what we saw on the show, there were no actual war crimes happening during that time. Now the Cardassians would have every right to put Dukat on trial for staging a coup with the help of a foreign power to become their leader and for making them subjects of a government they had in no way chosen, but the Federation?
(Just to clarify: I do think Dukat is guilty of war crimes during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, and that's based on his pre-Waltz characterisation. If he had been locked up for the rest of his life after Sacrifice of Angels for that reason, I'd have found it justified. I'm just curious about the 24th century legalities.)
Aside from the psychopath/FBI agent constellation as an inspiration, you can also see a strong Stephen King influence in Waltz - to be specific, Misery. Starring E!Dukat as Annie Wilkes, who both nurses and maltreats (when he's trying to escape) her helpless victim. I halfway expected E!Dukat to have a go at Sisko's feet. And again, I am frustrated because it's so well done and so ruining a good (in terms of well-written, not morally) character. Evil psychos are flashy but ultimately not that interesting. You can also safely be sure that they're in the wrong. How much more complex would Waltz have been if instead of E!Dukat, we would have gotten the character he used to be.
Because old school Dukat could be unpredictable and both be an antagonist or an occasional ally. He could even, gasp, be right on occasion. Instead of safely knowing he was in the company of an EEEEEEEVIL man who had to be destroyed, Sisko would find himself in situations like the one in Defiant (season 3), where he didn't just have to work with Dukat but actually saw he and his Cardassian adversary were in similar situations with their respective sons. Where Dukat was allowed to hint at a genuine tiredness with war. Dukat-that-was saw shakes of grey himself and went for compromises if they made more sense than total victory or total defeat. Instead of being psychotic, he was sarcastic (see his you really suck as torturers remark in The Maquis to his captors), or his needling of Sisko regarding pretentious titles in Ties of Blood and Water. He could laugh not just at others but at himself (scene in the cave with Kira in Indiscretion). He was ambitious and ruthless but had feelings about other things than "Im gonna rule/destroy the world!". In short, he was a three dimensional character. Well, no more.
Next thing we hear from Dukat is in Wrongs Darker than Death or Night, which is actually not about Dukat at all and something of an exception in that as far as his role is concerned, it could have taken place during the previous seasons. Well, except that in previous seasons Dukat wouldn't have told Kira since it he was still trying to win her over then, and telling her about her mother and himself starts of the plot.
I could quibble about Sisko's easy agreement to sending Kira on a time travel trip when some research (as the end shows) could have produced the same results, but never mind. Necessary plot device. While we're at the nitpicks, I also think the fact Kira while impersonating a "comfort woman" manages to get "her" Cardassian drunk and never has to face even as much as sexual molestation, let alone a rape (or knowing Kira, an attempted rape plus speedy death of the rapist, which would have meant the end of the story since presumably the Prophets would have drawn Kira back in time then) is unrealistic.
Now, on to the praise: I remember that at the time this episode was broadcast first, there were several articles about the Korean women who were forced to serve as prostitutes to the Japanese officers in WWII under the label "comfort women" and how this still had not been acknowledged (let alone apologized for) by the Japanese. Wrongs Darker… was ST picking up another contemporary social issue and doing it, for the most part, effectively. The casual ease alone with which the Bajoran collaborator, backed by Cardassian soldiers, picks out women in the refugee camp, not even bothering to ask their names is a great illustration of the sheer everyday horror of this particular war crime, imo a better one than if we had seen an actual rape scene.
However, Kira's true horror in this episode isn't that her mother didn't die in the camp as she had believed, or that her mother was forced to become a "comfort woman". What Kira can't forgive her mother for, even after deciding to let her live, is the way Meru reacted, and here we run into another thing that makes sense in itself, but poses problems in terms of continuity. Kira might have at that point acknowledged that not all Cardassians deserved to die, and she always knew her own actions were, even if sanctioned by the cause of liberating Bajor, sometimes ethically questionable, but when it comes to Bajorans who did something other than fighting the Cardassians, she still sees things in black and white. As she tells Odo at the start of season 6, she believes (believed) in the saying "if you're not fighting them, you're helping them". So, seeing her mother not knifing Dukat at the first chance Meru gets (which presumably would have resulted in Meru getting executed, and her family as well), or talking about how much she hates Dukat the minute Dukat is out of earshot but seeing with her own eyes that Meru showed signs of actually being fond of Dukat was too much to take. "It's not that you share his bed, but that you like sharing it!" Nerys screams at Meru.
But. Let's take a step back and compare and contrast. Meru was a nearly starving woman forcibly torn from her husband and children to serve as a prostitute. She then was lucky within that ghastly condition since instead of being passed from one Cardassian to another, she caught the eye of the most powerful one who offered not just physical safety for her but food and shelter for her family as well. (Which he delivered, if Tovan's message is anything to go by.) It still wasn't her choice but what choice did she have? A) Kill Dukat. See above. Would have meant her death and probably the death of her family. B) Endure Dukat to remain alive and help her family but in a "lie back and think of Bajor" manner. C) Doing the Stockholm Syndrom thing and becoming attached to the person providing food, security and care. Now I don't blame her for going the C) way.
On the other hand, we have Odo. Twice. Who had all the choices of the world. As opposed to Meru, he wasn't starving, nor did he have a family. He could have left his position as security chief at any time; he could have left both Bajor and Terok Nor, with or without Dukat's agreement. (Come on, Odo is a shapeshifter.) Instead, he worked for Dukat for years (and apparently Dukat trusted him enough to make him what-was-that-title-again-from-Tribunal as well), nearly as many as Meru was Dukat's mistress. He made quite a lot of contacts with other Cardassians as well who still owed him favours (Odo-meets-Cardassian-informant is a scene quite common during the early years of the show). He didn't do it for his family or his life, and he certainly wasn't charmed by Dukat. His great justification seems to have been that he wanted to pursue justice, and that someone else would have done worse in his place. Honestly, between Meru and Odo, I'd call Odo a collaborator any time.
Then we have Odo under the second occupation. See above and earlier entries. From Behind the Lines onwards, his actions were his own choices, including, incidentally, literary sharing a bed with the new regime. And yet the same Kira Nerys who though she ultimately can't bear to kill her mother still wishes she would have, who still condemns Meru as unforgivable, forgives him after one long chat. (Which we never see.) And becomes his lover a few months later. This double standard really, really sticks in my throat.
Tears of the Prophet: If at the time you had somehow missed the news that Terry Farrel was leaving the show, it still would have been obvious Jadzia was toast from the early parts of this episode. Not only does she want to have a baby, but Bashir later actually tells her she can have a Baby. And then she goes to thank the Prophets whom she never believed in before. Maximum tearjerker alert.
Still, it works. I like both Daxes, Jadzia and Ezri (Ezri praise will come once I have the seventh season), but seeing Jadzia die, hearing Sisko talk to her dead body, will never fail to move me. If I had to single out the Jadzia traits which indeared her to me, it would be a) her joie de vivre, b) her sense of humour, and c) her genuine love for other cultures. Oh, tolerance is a Starfleet virtue everyone claims but with Jadzia you never had the feeling she did it in a patronizing or just distant way. She always gave the impression of enjoying Klingon food and song and battle as much as the next Klingon, enjoying playing Tongo as much as the next Ferengi, enjoying Vulcan music because she genuinenly liked it. And she really, really liked people. Not just tolerated them, liked them. Not because she had some rosy-eyed view of them; she knew all their foibles, and liked them. And you could count on her both for counsel and fighting back-up if things got tough. If I had to pick just one of the DS9 crew to be friends with, it would have been Jadzia Dax.
In terms of Sisko's development, the contrast between this season finale and last season's finale is striking. Then, he lost the station but had a plan and was absolutely sure in himself. Now, he actually won the battle but lost both his best friend and the connection to the Prophets, and is absolutely adrift. We've seen in The Reckoning how much he had come to trust the Prophets by now, and how much he had come to believe in his role as the Emissary. And now all of this is challenged.
When I first saw the episode, I was expecting a storyline in which Sisko had to define himself as not-the-Emissary, which isn't what happened. I also felt immensely sorry for him. Rewatching it, I'm slightly appalled while still feeling sorry for Ben. Yes, it's a terrible double loss, but Worf lost his wife, and he doesn't take an indefinite leave of absence to angst about it. Bashir and Quark have lost their very dear friend whom they also loved (the scenes with both of them in this episode are both funny and touching), and they keep on the job. Plus there is a war going on, and Sisko…quits. Is it just me or do we have a case of egotism as well as loss and mourning?
This, btw, is not a criticism of the writers. On the contrary, it's another of these DS9 specialities. Can't imagine this happening in any of the other Treks. Yes, Picard took some time to recuperate from his Borg experience and flirted with the thought of quitting, but that was in peace time. Janeway didn't have the option. And Kirk lived in a universe which never was that mean to him anyway.
Lastly, since I didn't say anything about him yet: I like James Darren as Vic Fontaine. Some Vic, as in Tears of the Prophets, usually works better for me than the all Vic, all the time episodes (with one exception - love the pairing of him and Nog in It's only a paper moon, but he's a welcome addition to the Trekverse.
Addendum: The bonus material for this season is a particular treat, since it contains information actually new to me which I hadn't come across in previous interviews before. Such as Sid, in the Bashir special, saying that this was the only role in his life where he wasn't defined as "a coloured actor" and he loved that Bashir not being white was a non-issue on the show throughout. The Bashir special is generally well done and an interesting compare and contrast to the O'Brien special in season 5. In both, Ira Behr is quoted as saying that in his opinion, the Bashir/O'Brien friendship was the best friendship in Star Trek, including Kirk and Spock, since Kirk and Spock were Captain and First Officer whereas O'Brien and Bashir were equals. In the O'Brien special, both writers and actor go on about this at length; in the Bashir special, however, the section devoted to the relationship is considerable shorter, and you have a parallel though somewhat longer section dealing with the Garak/Bashir relationship, with Sid calling Garak, and Andy Robinson, the crucial element which made DS9 special, no less. Andy is also interviewed and says Bashir was basically the best of humanity - compassion, curiosity, the capacity for idealism. Then we get the "whatever you did, I forgive you" clip from The Wire.
The montage of all the Rules of Acquisition - i.e. of the scenes where one is quoted - cracked me up and is expertedly done. Most intriguing "hidden file" this time: Nana Visitor talking about the Kira/Dukat relationship. According to her, the writers actually wanted to go with an affair for a while which was news to me. I mean, I always thought they had great chemistry myself, and I know there was a lot of K/D fanfic at the time, but I also thought them ending up in bed together was impossible for the reason Nana names then as her objection. With his past as prefect, Kira really wouldn't, or shouldn't. Again, this is true for pre-Waltz Dukat; post-Waltz Dukat is obviously so far out of the question that it's not even debate-worthy. Which means that the idea was probably bandied about in season 4 or 5 (at the latest), only Nana then says she yelled at Ira Behr about it until he one day called her and said "Okay, you'll never have an affair with Dukat… but your mother had one!" Which would make it season 6. Huh. Unless he called her between seasons and they planned episodes that far ahead?
melymbrosia, hesychasm talks about the problematical side of Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials here.latcxvi makes a case for law enforcers in general and Norrington vs the Pirates of the Caribbean in particular here.And thanks to
londonkds, we're having a lively debate about Chimera at DS9agogo.Speaking of DS9, I finished the sixth season. Now we come to a couple of episodes which have little in common except that I consider them well-written in themselves but problematic in terms of continuity.
His Way: Either due to my change of attitude towards O/K in season 7 or due to a recent viewing of Love Actually, this didn't make me cringe anymore. By itself, it's a charming romantic comedy, everyone delivers great performances, the kiss is certainly one of ST's most memorable, so is Nana Visitor's rendition of Fever, and her "Who needs dinner anyway" line.
But. I still think that O/K in season 6 (not 7) was a massive cop-out on the part of the writers, and a mistake. Odo's actions during the occupation six parter had zero results and consequences. They might as well not have happened. The only episode where Kira feels the slightest bit uneasy about them is the You are cordially invited and that's settled with an off-screen talk. As for Odo? We never see him pondering the fact that he could through his ethics into the wind and that the only thing - really the only thing - which made him reconsider was love for Kira, and an immediate threat to her. Not his friendships with the rest of the people on the station. Not his sense of justice. If Kira hadn't been arrested, Rom would be dead, and the Dominion still in charge of DS9 if it had been up to Odo. That was a huge thing in terms of character development - and then they didn't follow it up. Not with anything. And consider it from the pov of Kira's character. Given Kira's attitude towards her own mother in the same season and only two episodes before His Way happens, her complete lack of issues with Odo makes her look like an utter hypocrite, and I don't like to see Kira as a hypocrite. (More about this later.)
What I would have liked to have seen: Odo and Kira slowly rebuilding their relationship. With a much longer uneasiness, not uneasiness due to Odo's love for Kira but uneasiness due to Odo's actions and what they imply - that his sense of loyalties is only tied to one person, which is not what he believed of himself, or she believed of himself, before. And a longer time for Kira to realise that yes, maybe she can see Odo not as a platonic friend but as someone romantically/sexually attractive.
The Sound of her Voice: no complaints here. The never seen Lisa is probably my favourite human redshirt. I really hoped they'd save her, and could believe the crew establishing a relationship with her. And not surprisingly, I loved, loved, loved the subplot in which Odo lets Quark be successful with a scheme as a silent thank you for the emotional support during the Unreachable Kira years.
And now the thing you've all been
You notice the chance from the very first scene onwards in terms of direction and music. Sisko going to visit Dukat is basically Clarice Starling, or Will Whats-his-name from Red Dragon/Manhunter going to visit Hannibal Lecter. Complete with the somewhat bewildering change of Dukat suddenly addressing Sisko with his first name. It increases the creepy psychopath aura but comes totally out of the blue - Dukat never did that before. (He did call Kira "Nerys" on occasion, though far often "Major"; Sisko he always addressed as "Commander" and later Captain.) But then, that's not surprising. Old Dukat, even when presented as utterly and completely wrong/ruthless/the antagonist - as in, say, the season 2 episode Cardassians -, was never creepy, or psychotic. He didn't have to be. He was an antagonist with plausible motives (in the case of Cardassians, revenge against a political enemy and not caring who suffered for it). New Dukat has to be EEEEEEEEEVIL, and hey, that creepy psycho element always helps with such things.
The visualisation of Dukat's psychosis by Weyoun, Damar and Kira as conflicting voices in his head - admiring Damar is his ego, Weyoun is his doubts and Kira is downright self-loathing - is well done and of the three, Nana Visitor plays most intensely and again rocks in her performance. It's also not thought through because if "Kira" is symbolizing Dukat's self hatred, why is she still there at the end when he's resolved on his EEEEEEVIL path and from what we see in the rest of the show happy on it?
(Again, I can't help but compare and contrast with Babylon 5. In season 5's The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari we also have various people in Londo's life taking on various aspects in his head. But then Londo (who considering the death toll in the Narn/Centauri war has probably as much blood on his hands as Dukat) was never reduced to a psychopath, or the villain in a melodrama. JMS very easily could have gone the E!Londo route. He did not.)
The mini version of the Nuremberg Trials again makes me frustrated beyond belief because you see, one of the crucial points of the Nuremberg Trials was that the people accused weren't, by and large, raving psychopaths. They brought up some of the same self-justifications Dukat does ("had my orders", "was provoked", etc.), but the truly frightening thing wasn't that they were certifiable but that they were sane.
Incidentally, I'm curious about the hearing Dukat was on his way towards and Sisko was going to testify for. Because I wonder - if the accusation was for war crimes during his time as prefect of Bajor, why was it a Federation and not a Bajoran trial, and why on earth was Sisko going to be a witness? He wasn't present during the occupation. Moreover, everything Dukat did during the Occupation was well known to the Federation before, and I didn't notice any attempt to arrest him and put him on trial during the numerous times Dukat visited the station in seasons 2-5. If it was going to be a trial dealing with Dukat's acts since he joined the Dominion, otoh, we're in even more murky legal territory, because from what we saw on the show, there were no actual war crimes happening during that time. Now the Cardassians would have every right to put Dukat on trial for staging a coup with the help of a foreign power to become their leader and for making them subjects of a government they had in no way chosen, but the Federation?
(Just to clarify: I do think Dukat is guilty of war crimes during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, and that's based on his pre-Waltz characterisation. If he had been locked up for the rest of his life after Sacrifice of Angels for that reason, I'd have found it justified. I'm just curious about the 24th century legalities.)
Aside from the psychopath/FBI agent constellation as an inspiration, you can also see a strong Stephen King influence in Waltz - to be specific, Misery. Starring E!Dukat as Annie Wilkes, who both nurses and maltreats (when he's trying to escape) her helpless victim. I halfway expected E!Dukat to have a go at Sisko's feet. And again, I am frustrated because it's so well done and so ruining a good (in terms of well-written, not morally) character. Evil psychos are flashy but ultimately not that interesting. You can also safely be sure that they're in the wrong. How much more complex would Waltz have been if instead of E!Dukat, we would have gotten the character he used to be.
Because old school Dukat could be unpredictable and both be an antagonist or an occasional ally. He could even, gasp, be right on occasion. Instead of safely knowing he was in the company of an EEEEEEEVIL man who had to be destroyed, Sisko would find himself in situations like the one in Defiant (season 3), where he didn't just have to work with Dukat but actually saw he and his Cardassian adversary were in similar situations with their respective sons. Where Dukat was allowed to hint at a genuine tiredness with war. Dukat-that-was saw shakes of grey himself and went for compromises if they made more sense than total victory or total defeat. Instead of being psychotic, he was sarcastic (see his you really suck as torturers remark in The Maquis to his captors), or his needling of Sisko regarding pretentious titles in Ties of Blood and Water. He could laugh not just at others but at himself (scene in the cave with Kira in Indiscretion). He was ambitious and ruthless but had feelings about other things than "Im gonna rule/destroy the world!". In short, he was a three dimensional character. Well, no more.
Next thing we hear from Dukat is in Wrongs Darker than Death or Night, which is actually not about Dukat at all and something of an exception in that as far as his role is concerned, it could have taken place during the previous seasons. Well, except that in previous seasons Dukat wouldn't have told Kira since it he was still trying to win her over then, and telling her about her mother and himself starts of the plot.
I could quibble about Sisko's easy agreement to sending Kira on a time travel trip when some research (as the end shows) could have produced the same results, but never mind. Necessary plot device. While we're at the nitpicks, I also think the fact Kira while impersonating a "comfort woman" manages to get "her" Cardassian drunk and never has to face even as much as sexual molestation, let alone a rape (or knowing Kira, an attempted rape plus speedy death of the rapist, which would have meant the end of the story since presumably the Prophets would have drawn Kira back in time then) is unrealistic.
Now, on to the praise: I remember that at the time this episode was broadcast first, there were several articles about the Korean women who were forced to serve as prostitutes to the Japanese officers in WWII under the label "comfort women" and how this still had not been acknowledged (let alone apologized for) by the Japanese. Wrongs Darker… was ST picking up another contemporary social issue and doing it, for the most part, effectively. The casual ease alone with which the Bajoran collaborator, backed by Cardassian soldiers, picks out women in the refugee camp, not even bothering to ask their names is a great illustration of the sheer everyday horror of this particular war crime, imo a better one than if we had seen an actual rape scene.
However, Kira's true horror in this episode isn't that her mother didn't die in the camp as she had believed, or that her mother was forced to become a "comfort woman". What Kira can't forgive her mother for, even after deciding to let her live, is the way Meru reacted, and here we run into another thing that makes sense in itself, but poses problems in terms of continuity. Kira might have at that point acknowledged that not all Cardassians deserved to die, and she always knew her own actions were, even if sanctioned by the cause of liberating Bajor, sometimes ethically questionable, but when it comes to Bajorans who did something other than fighting the Cardassians, she still sees things in black and white. As she tells Odo at the start of season 6, she believes (believed) in the saying "if you're not fighting them, you're helping them". So, seeing her mother not knifing Dukat at the first chance Meru gets (which presumably would have resulted in Meru getting executed, and her family as well), or talking about how much she hates Dukat the minute Dukat is out of earshot but seeing with her own eyes that Meru showed signs of actually being fond of Dukat was too much to take. "It's not that you share his bed, but that you like sharing it!" Nerys screams at Meru.
But. Let's take a step back and compare and contrast. Meru was a nearly starving woman forcibly torn from her husband and children to serve as a prostitute. She then was lucky within that ghastly condition since instead of being passed from one Cardassian to another, she caught the eye of the most powerful one who offered not just physical safety for her but food and shelter for her family as well. (Which he delivered, if Tovan's message is anything to go by.) It still wasn't her choice but what choice did she have? A) Kill Dukat. See above. Would have meant her death and probably the death of her family. B) Endure Dukat to remain alive and help her family but in a "lie back and think of Bajor" manner. C) Doing the Stockholm Syndrom thing and becoming attached to the person providing food, security and care. Now I don't blame her for going the C) way.
On the other hand, we have Odo. Twice. Who had all the choices of the world. As opposed to Meru, he wasn't starving, nor did he have a family. He could have left his position as security chief at any time; he could have left both Bajor and Terok Nor, with or without Dukat's agreement. (Come on, Odo is a shapeshifter.) Instead, he worked for Dukat for years (and apparently Dukat trusted him enough to make him what-was-that-title-again-from-Tribunal as well), nearly as many as Meru was Dukat's mistress. He made quite a lot of contacts with other Cardassians as well who still owed him favours (Odo-meets-Cardassian-informant is a scene quite common during the early years of the show). He didn't do it for his family or his life, and he certainly wasn't charmed by Dukat. His great justification seems to have been that he wanted to pursue justice, and that someone else would have done worse in his place. Honestly, between Meru and Odo, I'd call Odo a collaborator any time.
Then we have Odo under the second occupation. See above and earlier entries. From Behind the Lines onwards, his actions were his own choices, including, incidentally, literary sharing a bed with the new regime. And yet the same Kira Nerys who though she ultimately can't bear to kill her mother still wishes she would have, who still condemns Meru as unforgivable, forgives him after one long chat. (Which we never see.) And becomes his lover a few months later. This double standard really, really sticks in my throat.
Tears of the Prophet: If at the time you had somehow missed the news that Terry Farrel was leaving the show, it still would have been obvious Jadzia was toast from the early parts of this episode. Not only does she want to have a baby, but Bashir later actually tells her she can have a Baby. And then she goes to thank the Prophets whom she never believed in before. Maximum tearjerker alert.
Still, it works. I like both Daxes, Jadzia and Ezri (Ezri praise will come once I have the seventh season), but seeing Jadzia die, hearing Sisko talk to her dead body, will never fail to move me. If I had to single out the Jadzia traits which indeared her to me, it would be a) her joie de vivre, b) her sense of humour, and c) her genuine love for other cultures. Oh, tolerance is a Starfleet virtue everyone claims but with Jadzia you never had the feeling she did it in a patronizing or just distant way. She always gave the impression of enjoying Klingon food and song and battle as much as the next Klingon, enjoying playing Tongo as much as the next Ferengi, enjoying Vulcan music because she genuinenly liked it. And she really, really liked people. Not just tolerated them, liked them. Not because she had some rosy-eyed view of them; she knew all their foibles, and liked them. And you could count on her both for counsel and fighting back-up if things got tough. If I had to pick just one of the DS9 crew to be friends with, it would have been Jadzia Dax.
In terms of Sisko's development, the contrast between this season finale and last season's finale is striking. Then, he lost the station but had a plan and was absolutely sure in himself. Now, he actually won the battle but lost both his best friend and the connection to the Prophets, and is absolutely adrift. We've seen in The Reckoning how much he had come to trust the Prophets by now, and how much he had come to believe in his role as the Emissary. And now all of this is challenged.
When I first saw the episode, I was expecting a storyline in which Sisko had to define himself as not-the-Emissary, which isn't what happened. I also felt immensely sorry for him. Rewatching it, I'm slightly appalled while still feeling sorry for Ben. Yes, it's a terrible double loss, but Worf lost his wife, and he doesn't take an indefinite leave of absence to angst about it. Bashir and Quark have lost their very dear friend whom they also loved (the scenes with both of them in this episode are both funny and touching), and they keep on the job. Plus there is a war going on, and Sisko…quits. Is it just me or do we have a case of egotism as well as loss and mourning?
This, btw, is not a criticism of the writers. On the contrary, it's another of these DS9 specialities. Can't imagine this happening in any of the other Treks. Yes, Picard took some time to recuperate from his Borg experience and flirted with the thought of quitting, but that was in peace time. Janeway didn't have the option. And Kirk lived in a universe which never was that mean to him anyway.
Lastly, since I didn't say anything about him yet: I like James Darren as Vic Fontaine. Some Vic, as in Tears of the Prophets, usually works better for me than the all Vic, all the time episodes (with one exception - love the pairing of him and Nog in It's only a paper moon, but he's a welcome addition to the Trekverse.
Addendum: The bonus material for this season is a particular treat, since it contains information actually new to me which I hadn't come across in previous interviews before. Such as Sid, in the Bashir special, saying that this was the only role in his life where he wasn't defined as "a coloured actor" and he loved that Bashir not being white was a non-issue on the show throughout. The Bashir special is generally well done and an interesting compare and contrast to the O'Brien special in season 5. In both, Ira Behr is quoted as saying that in his opinion, the Bashir/O'Brien friendship was the best friendship in Star Trek, including Kirk and Spock, since Kirk and Spock were Captain and First Officer whereas O'Brien and Bashir were equals. In the O'Brien special, both writers and actor go on about this at length; in the Bashir special, however, the section devoted to the relationship is considerable shorter, and you have a parallel though somewhat longer section dealing with the Garak/Bashir relationship, with Sid calling Garak, and Andy Robinson, the crucial element which made DS9 special, no less. Andy is also interviewed and says Bashir was basically the best of humanity - compassion, curiosity, the capacity for idealism. Then we get the "whatever you did, I forgive you" clip from The Wire.
The montage of all the Rules of Acquisition - i.e. of the scenes where one is quoted - cracked me up and is expertedly done. Most intriguing "hidden file" this time: Nana Visitor talking about the Kira/Dukat relationship. According to her, the writers actually wanted to go with an affair for a while which was news to me. I mean, I always thought they had great chemistry myself, and I know there was a lot of K/D fanfic at the time, but I also thought them ending up in bed together was impossible for the reason Nana names then as her objection. With his past as prefect, Kira really wouldn't, or shouldn't. Again, this is true for pre-Waltz Dukat; post-Waltz Dukat is obviously so far out of the question that it's not even debate-worthy. Which means that the idea was probably bandied about in season 4 or 5 (at the latest), only Nana then says she yelled at Ira Behr about it until he one day called her and said "Okay, you'll never have an affair with Dukat… but your mother had one!" Which would make it season 6. Huh. Unless he called her between seasons and they planned episodes that far ahead?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 03:53 am (UTC)Thought this also. Yo!
Kira might have at that point acknowledged that not all Cardassians deserved to die, and she always knew her own actions were, even if sanctioned by the cause of liberating Bajor, sometimes ethically questionable, but when it comes to Bajorans who did something other than fighting the Cardassians, she still sees things in black and white. As she tells Odo at the start of season 6, she believes (believed) in the saying "if you're not fighting them, you're helping them".
She's hard-line, revolutionary... and a wee bit twisted.
It still wasn't her choice but what choice did she have? A) Kill Dukat. See above. Would have meant her death and probably the death of her family. B) Endure Dukat to remain alive and help her family but in a "lie back and think of Bajor" manner. C) Doing the Stockholm Syndrom thing and becoming attached to the person providing food, security and care. Now I don't blame her for going the C) way.
Word.
Instead, he worked for Dukat for years (and apparently Dukat trusted him enough to make him what-was-that-title-again-from-Tribunal as well), nearly as many as Meru was Dukat's mistress. He made quite a lot of contacts with other Cardassians as well who still owed him favours (Odo-meets-Cardassian-informant is a scene quite common during the early years of the show). He didn't do it for his family or his life, and he certainly wasn't charmed by Dukat.
...who he could have killed, presumably, at almost any time. And he must have become an impediment to the Bajoran militia, if only by handing over the guilty. Which he did, because he was helping to enforce the laws of the aggressor-power. Really, not much excuse.
His great justification seems to have been that he wanted to pursue justice, and that someone else would have done worse in his place. Honestly, between Meru and Odo, I'd call Odo a collaborator any time.
I think he's just using that as an excuse to himself/Kira. I really don't think he was much help, since he handed people over anyway and presumably had to base his work on Cardassian rules.
And yet the same Kira Nerys who though she ultimately can't bear to kill her mother still wishes she would have, who still condemns Meru as unforgivable, forgives him after one long chat. (Which we never see.) And becomes his lover a few months later. This double standard really, really sticks in my throat.
Makes me wanna puke, yo.
And then she goes to thank the Prophets whom she never believed in before.
See? The Prophets are no use to anyone.
Except they got us Ezri.If I had to pick just one of the DS9 crew to be friends with, it would have been Jadzia Dax.
Though she did flirt with Quark and Jules when she knew it could/would hurt them. (Actually, if you don't believe Ezri in S7 and reckon J/J was Never Gonna Happen, Jadzia really was an utter bitch to Julian.)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 07:12 am (UTC)Yep, Odo could have killed Dukat at any point, and as opposed to Meru he could have done it without any danger to himself or people close to him. What better asassin than a shapeshifter? Actually, Odo could have killed Dukat and taken his place, which would have been the ultimate sabotage from within.
Mind you, if Dukat would have been found murdered he would have been replaced post haste and things would have gone on as usual. If Dukat had suddenly started to act strange and order prison camps closed etc, he also would have been replaced. But still.
Though she did flirt with Quark and Jules when she knew it could/would hurt them.
Not in a manner which went beyond, well, friendly banter. She explicitly told Julian that she wasn't interested in romance with him in the first season. BTW, thanks the the Bashir special repeating the season 1 "you're a very dear friend, Julian" let down clip directly after me having watched Tears of the Prophets I realised this was also the last thing Jadzia ever said to him. As for Quark, I don't think she ever realised it had gone beyond friendship and banter for him. Plus neither Quark nor Jules were exactly pining in chaste celibacy; Jadzia saw both them involved repeatedly (admittedly Quark more often).
(All this being said, I think Julian was right in that scene in the elevator when he accused her of liking being chased.*g*)
Actually, if you don't believe Ezri in S7 and reckon J/J was Never Gonna Happen, Jadzia really was an utter bitch to Julian.
You don't believe Ezri then? I thought J/J was never gonna happen in the first two or three seasons because at that point, he was still too much of a child. Well for her; not for Garak. *g* Afterwards, starting from ca. The Quickening? It could have happened. If they hadn't gotten Michael Dorn it probably would have happened, too...
no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 11:44 am (UTC)After which they set up the reckoning, which could well have killed his son. Gits.
(All this being said, I think Julian was right in that scene in the elevator when he accused her of liking being chased.*g*)
It was like her hobby or something...
You don't believe Ezri then? I thought J/J was never gonna happen in the first two or three seasons because at that point, he was still too much of a child. Well for her; not for Garak. *g* Afterwards, starting from ca. The Quickening? It could have happened. If they hadn't gotten Michael Dorn it probably would have happened, too...
Ickickick! I think Ezri probably told the truth - if only because it's too horrendous a thing to have made up. That look of utter heartbreak? That's why no one thinks of her as a counsellor...
no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 10:21 am (UTC)I'm gonna have to admit it now, I never had a problem with Evil!Dukat probably for two reasons:
1) I figured it was all due to him being completely insane.
2) My teenage mind probably liked the idea that Dukat could now be hated.
Although I'm pretty sure that when I eventually have all of DS9 on DVD and rewatch them all that I'll probably get nostalgic for 3D Dukat. I think it might have been that my young mind couldn't accept villains with shades of grey, heroes with shades of grey definitely but not villains.
Sadly I can't really comment on Tears of the Prophet because I never saw it, I knew that Jadzia was gonna die but nothing else and then I couldn't watch it because stupid football was on. That's also the reason I missed most of Season 7, which helped turn my indifference to football to blinding hatred.
if I were you I'd hate football, too.
Date: 2003-12-09 10:33 am (UTC)Me too, as long as I don't think about this episode as a part of season 6. That's the problem.
I think it might have been that my young mind couldn't accept villains with shades of grey, heroes with shades of grey definitely but not villains.
That's interesting. Do you still remember when you came across the first shades of grey villain you liked? Makes me wonder when we start to appreciate shades of grey. I think I fell for my first shades-of-grey villain with twelve, but it was a book, not a show.
Re: if I were you I'd hate football, too.
Date: 2003-12-09 11:18 am (UTC)The hatred of football sort of mellowed during the last World Cup when I actually watched a match for the first time in about seven years.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 11:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 12:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 12:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-09 02:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 12:17 am (UTC)The various cooperations with Sisko in seasons 3 and 4 was Dukat looking out for Number One, to be sure, but he could have done that in other ways, too. For example, in The Maquis, he didn't know at first he was going to be framed and hence in danger himself (his expression when Sisko later tells him in part II is priceless); he could have gone for the "accuse Sisko of being guilty" approach to reap glory for himself, but obviously thought that a Federation/Cardassia war coming out of this would benefit no-one, hence warned Sisko and took him on that little trip. Similar with The Defiant; again, if Dukat had been out just for himself, as opposed to himself and Cardassia, he could have used that "Federation officer on Federation ship out gunning for Cardassians" as a golden opportunity, instead of believing Sisko, and working with Sisko to solve this in an unbloody manner. (Oh yeah, and arrange for a non-death-sentence judgement for Thomas Riker. Of what benefit is this for Dukat?)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 01:10 am (UTC)I've been thinking about Ziyal and I can't think of a concrete reason why Dukat decided to take her to Cardassia, except that his love for her was stronger than that of his Cardassian family. Which is fairly likely considering that none of them are ever seen on screen and the only specific mention of them I can think of is when he makes the speech about Klingons and Maquis being kicked out of Cardassian territory after Cardassia has joined the Dominion.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 03:09 am (UTC)(The "You should have thought of that before you became involved with Naprem" "You're right, I should have" exchange with Kira.)
It's interesting to speculate why Ziyal more than his legitimate children. For starters, presumably he didn't see them very often during the occupation, only when he was on leave, wereas he actually raised Ziyal together with Naprem until the occupation was about to end and he sent them both away. But I think it also has something to do with what Ziyal symbolized to him, which was basically the impossible - Cardassia and Bajor united in a non-hostile way.
(I don't think Ziyal symbolized Bajor itself to Dukat - that was Kira. Apart from the sexual attraction, I think somewhere, consciously or subconsciously, he thought that if he could get Kira to forgive him, it would mean Bajor did.)
no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 04:47 am (UTC)I don't think Ziyal symbolized Bajor itself to Dukat - that was Kira
Definitely, in fact it could be possible to see the Dukat & Kira relationship as a microcosm for the relations between Bajor and Cardassia. Dukat’s almost obsession in getting Kira to accept him would suggest that he is looking for some kind of absolution for his actions during the occupation and Kira does seem to represent the most hard line views. As seen in Wrongs Darker than Death or Night with her reaction to the truth about her mother, and she has no right to judge her mother because she never had to deal with that situation.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 05:22 am (UTC)He must have, not just to report back home in person but because of simple mathemathics. He's got seven children with his wife; at least one son is still a child/teenager at the time of DS9's third season; and he was prefect of Bajor for about 20 years. Which he must have returned to Cardassia a couple of times, otherwise these kids wouldn't exist. Unless his wife visited him on DS9 for each child to be sired; however, given that your idea:
In fact it seems surprising that Dukat never relocated his family there like other Cardassians, or maybe he was smart enough to realize that by moving them to Bajor or Terok Nor he’d be making them targets for the Resistance.
makes sense to me. If his ravings in Waltz are to be believed, only a few weeks after his arrival (which btw means he wasn't on Bajor before being appointed as prefect, which is interesting - I think fanon had him serving on Bajor as a Glinn before, but then he wouldn't have "arrived") he survived the first resistance assassination attempt which was a suicide bombing with a Bajoran mother, complete with babies, as the suicide bomber. Plus we do have independent confirmation in other episodes like Cardassians or The Light and the Dark that the Resistance targeted any Cardassians, not just the military. The family of the prefect would have been prime targets, no doubt. Under these circumstances, it would be sensible to leave them on Cardassia.
There might be an additional reason: let's not forget, Dukat's father was executed as a traitor (which Garak had something do with, according to Civil Defense and For the Cause). The goverment might have insisted that Dukat leave his family on Cardassia Prime, as a guarantee for loyal behaviour.
Dukat’s almost obsession in getting Kira to accept him would suggest that he is looking for some kind of absolution for his actions during the occupation and Kira does seem to represent the most hard line views.
Yes, that would be my interpretation as well. I think they even verbalize it at one point - in Return to Grace Kira tells Ziyal "what your father truly wants from me is forgiveness", and that she could never grant it.
no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-12-10 12:18 am (UTC)In any case, it would be great if you'd join - debates are only possible with multiple povs, after all!
no subject
Date: 2004-11-17 10:07 am (UTC)Well, I never. That's something I would have loved to see, and now I'm trying to imagine how they could have done it. The most obvious way would be if Dukat's transformation into a terrorist in season 4 had stuck. Then he could have morphed into the leader of the resistance on Cardassia, and eventually into a Good Guy. He'd probably have to die eventually because of his crimes, but I could see Kira having a night with him in the meantime. Sort of the way she relates to Ghemor's past war crimes in 'Ties of Blood and Water.'
In season 6 I can only imagine it as a sort of reverse 'Waltz' scenario - Kira, angry and resentful, kidnaps grief-crazed Dukat because she wants to make him face his true guilt before handing him over to the Federation. In the process, things about him are revealed that complicate the picture, bring them closer and change both of them. Kind of like G'kar's Vorlon-assisted mind-rape of Londo. Then you would need an arc after that, lasting probably until the end of the series, before it would be really possible for them to get together. And he'd still have to die at the end.
The thing is, I don't trust the DS9 writers to be able to pull off either of these scenarios. They would both require sustained character development over an arc. I'd be too afraid that they'd do what they did with Odo, and just forgive him. JMS could have done it, but I don't know if Kira is the sort of character he'd care about. Too conventionally religious, and too willing to submit to the authority of the Emissary. I think if we gave Kira to JMS, he'd just have her fall unrequitedly in love with Sisko.
Sigh. Much more fun to talk about what could have happened than what did.
The mini version of the Nuremberg Trials again makes me frustrated beyond belief because you see, one of the crucial points of the Nuremberg Trials was that the people accused weren't, by and large, raving psychopaths. They brought up some of the same self-justifications Dukat does ("had my orders", "was provoked", etc.), but the truly frightening thing wasn't that they were certifiable but that they were sane.
Yes! Yes! *claps*
Besides, the Nurenberg trials weren't about declaring people 'pure evil'. (As if a court could do that, or as if anyone could aside from God.) They were about proving that they had committed certain crimes, and were morally responsible for them. If that had been all the episode did to Dukat, I'd have less objections. (Although still, as you say, that you don't condemn a person based on what they say when they're certifiably insane.)
But honestly, I'd rather not hear a Holocaust comparison in a TV show (or anywhere else) ever again. I think it's over-used as an analogy, as if to say that's the only time when people have done terrible things to each other. For Americans, it's a very comforting and safe analogy, because it was the other side in a war we were fighting in. If you were to use the analogy, say, of American conquest and extermination of native peoples, it would hit much closer to home. I also think it would be a much closer analogy to the situation.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-17 10:08 am (UTC)Actually, I think an even better analogy is the Spanish conquest of native peoples in the Americas as opposed to the British, since the British just wanted the land and the Spanish wanted to convert the people as well. The British in India would also be a great analogy, since they had the same kind of paternalistic relationship. But really, any European conquerer in America, Asia or Africa would be a better analogy than Hitler.
Because I wonder - if the accusation was for war crimes during his time as prefect of Bajor, why was it a Federation and not a Bajoran trial, and why on earth was Sisko going to be a witness?
Absolutely. (grumbles loudly and angrily about Federation paternalism and imperialism) The episode would have made infinitely more sense if it was Kira as Dukat's adversary, and if they had been on their way to Bajor for the trial. Would've been more fun to watch, too.
If it was going to be a trial dealing with Dukat's acts since he joined the Dominion, otoh, we're in even more murky legal territory, because from what we saw on the show, there were no actual war crimes happening during that time.
Yep. Or do you put someone on trial for being the head of the losing side of a war?
admiring Damar is his ego, Weyoun is his doubts and Kira is downright self-loathing
I saw it as, Damar was his need to do right by Cardassia, Weyoun was his need to be strict in judgement and vengeful, Kira was his need to do right by Bajor. Since he had failed in all aspects, they all hated him in differing degrees. Kira was the angriest because Bajor was what he felt most guilty about.
It's also not thought through because if "Kira" is symbolizing Dukat's self hatred, why is she still there at the end when he's resolved on his EEEEEEVIL path and from what we see in the rest of the show happy on it?
As we've seen, Dukat is very good at looking happy when inside he's falling to pieces. Could that be the case later in the series?
Just to clarify: I do think Dukat is guilty of war crimes during the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, and that's based on his pre-Waltz characterisation. If he had been locked up for the rest of his life after Sacrifice of Angels for that reason, I'd have found it justified.
I'm not arguing there. And a proper trial scene - on Bajor, with Winn and Kira and Garak as witnesses - would have been wonderful to watch.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 12:58 am (UTC)To be fair, they did a great job with Damar, who does get a redemption arc which doesn't make things easy for him at all. And the relationship with Kira he develops is crucial in this. But it's not a romantic relationship, nor does he ever make a pass at her etc. Still, when you see Damar's arc unfold you get the impression this is what Dukat's could have been if they hadn't decided to make him EEEEEVIL. (The sole justification for which from a story telling pov that I can see is so that Sisko has someone physical to square off against in the finale, which is lame.) (All the other conflicts are resolved in very different means, and involving different characters, including the big Dominion arc, and the fate of Cardassia.)
JMS could have done it, but I don't know if Kira is the sort of character he'd care about. Too conventionally religious, and too willing to submit to the authority of the Emissary. I think if we gave Kira to JMS, he'd just have her fall unrequitedly in love with Sisko.
Now this evokes a strange image of Kira as Lennier.*g* On a more flippant note, I once wrote a not so serious speculation (http://www.livejournal.com/users/selenak/58186.html) about some of my favourite shows, including B5 and DS9, switching writers...
But honestly, I'd rather not hear a Holocaust comparison in a TV show (or anywhere else) ever again. I think it's over-used as an analogy, as if to say that's the only time when people have done terrible things to each other.
I basically agree with you, though I thought DS9 actually did it rather well in Duet.
For Americans, it's a very comforting and safe analogy, because it was the other side in a war we were fighting in.
Again, I think you're right. If you're German, though, as I am, all the use of Third Reich imagery in fantasy and sci-fi as a kind of tried and true movie monster trope, a la Dracula and Frankenstein, becomes either irritating or disturbing for other reasons.
If you were to use the analogy, say, of American conquest and extermination of native peoples, it would hit much closer to home.
A not so good TNG episode did that once. (Proving that good intentions to do something different do not necessarily good storytelling make.)
Regarding your interpretation of Damar, Kira and Weyoun in Dukat's mind: it's as plausible as mine.
As we've seen, Dukat is very good at looking happy when inside he's falling to pieces. Could that be the case later in the series?
Oh, absolutely. He has a great scene with Damar (actually, he has several good scenes with Damar, but I mean what turns out to be their last conversation together) which you can interpret in this way, and several very ambiguous ones with Winn.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-18 10:22 am (UTC)The main justification that I can see is that all the K/Du fanfic was squicking the hell out of them, and that it would have become fanon if TPTB has let it. It reminds me of Lennier's diary - trying to retroactively change our understanding of a character so that we won't like him too much.
And, it's probably not coincidence that Kira and Odo don't get together until the Kira/Dukat chemistry is dead and buried. Grumble.
Now this evokes a strange image of Kira as Lennier.*g*
That is kinda funny. I was thining of her more as Ivanova, who, as much fun as she can be, is clearly subordinate to (and possibly unrequitedly in love with) both captains.
On a more flippant note, I once wrote a not so serious speculation about some of my favourite shows, including B5 and DS9, switching writers...
Any chance you'll have DS9 and B5 switch writers in a future version?
I basically agree with you, though I thought DS9 actually did it rather well in Duet.
Yes, and I'm trying to think why. Maybe because the analogy made Marizza more sympathetic rather than less.
Again, I think you're right. If you're German, though, as I am, all the use of Third Reich imagery in fantasy and sci-fi as a kind of tried and true movie monster trope, a la Dracula and Frankenstein, becomes either irritating or disturbing for other reasons.
Any chance you'll do meta on this? I'd like to hear it.