when in Rome...
Feb. 8th, 2004 07:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakThe beta-read version of my Buffy-and-Dawn-in-Rome story, City Girls, is up now - by popular demand with more Lamia!
You know, it did occur to me that a story about a Slayer in the Ancient World, fighting with the monsters it had to offer, would be great fun to write, too. Of course for all I know one already exists in Tales of the Slayer. (Sadly, I do not possess those.) I do dimly recall there was a Roman vampire, and a flashback to a Roman Slayer, in one of Christopher Golden's novels, but then that one struck me as woefully under-researched.
Which reminds me: in the last decade or so, detective stories set in Ancient Rome have become quite popular. I like Lindsey Davis' Falco series for what it is - a deliberately anachronistic blend of tongue-in-cheek noir a la Raymond Chandler, and the historical novel. I also enjoyed some of John Ford Maddox SPQR novels. But the only mysteries set in the Roman world which struck me as authentic in the sense of the author managing to create a narrative voice that doesn't try for 20th (or 21st) century views but rings as something translated directly (and very elegantly) from the Latin are Steven Saylor's Roma Sub Rosa novels, featuring Gordianus the Finder. They're set in the late Roman Republic, and his take on the various historical personalities is always three-dimensional. Take Cicero, who is characterized as pompous, ambitious, manipulative, and a downright prig, but also in the end as honestly concerned for the Republic. In the third of the Roma Sub Rosa novels, Catilina's Riddle, he says at one point to Gordianus that he knows he lacks charme and charisma (as opposed to Catilina - and, the reader can add, Caesar) but that it will be the charming, charismatic men who bring Rome down.
Speaking of Catilina, he's another fascinating character, very ambiguous - Gordianus keeps being in two minds about him while acknowledging the charme and the attraction. (Meanwhile, Saylor makes a plausible case for much of Catilina's reputation being due to propaganda during election campaigns and then the defeat of his uprising while pointing out that this doesn't necessarily mean Catilina was sincere.)
And then there's Clodia Pulcher. The Clodia which the poet Catullus, who was in love with her, both cursed and adored. (If you're into hate/love relationships, Catullus' poems are first class examples.) Now in detective stories, sexual women are usually either femme fatales, destined for a tragic ends, or vicious sluts, who also end badly. Clodia in Saylor's version is neither. (Though readers will start out reading her as a femme fatale in the first novel she appears in, The Venus Throw. Gordianus originally makes the same mistake.) She's capable of both casual sex and deep emotional committment (though not necessarily to the men she has sex with), cruelty and compassion. There is something broken in her, but she is a survivor. (As opposed to, say Catilina.)
Lastly, the ongoing OC characters, if you allow the fanfic term, Gordianus' family, all develop and change, as does his relationship with each of them. And again, they're not a 20th century family. When Gordianus, in one of the later novels, makes a decision about one of his sons, it is very much the act of a pater familias. You understand his reasons because you have been drawn into his world, instead of him acting out in a manner according to yours.
An a completely different note, the entry over at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
theatrical_muse made for Frodo in reply to the "If you could dine with anyone of all of history, who would it be?" challenge is touching and perfectly in character; read it here.
And![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
elz has made Frodo-and-the-ring wallpaper, which tempts me to cry all over again each time I look at it...
You know, it did occur to me that a story about a Slayer in the Ancient World, fighting with the monsters it had to offer, would be great fun to write, too. Of course for all I know one already exists in Tales of the Slayer. (Sadly, I do not possess those.) I do dimly recall there was a Roman vampire, and a flashback to a Roman Slayer, in one of Christopher Golden's novels, but then that one struck me as woefully under-researched.
Which reminds me: in the last decade or so, detective stories set in Ancient Rome have become quite popular. I like Lindsey Davis' Falco series for what it is - a deliberately anachronistic blend of tongue-in-cheek noir a la Raymond Chandler, and the historical novel. I also enjoyed some of John Ford Maddox SPQR novels. But the only mysteries set in the Roman world which struck me as authentic in the sense of the author managing to create a narrative voice that doesn't try for 20th (or 21st) century views but rings as something translated directly (and very elegantly) from the Latin are Steven Saylor's Roma Sub Rosa novels, featuring Gordianus the Finder. They're set in the late Roman Republic, and his take on the various historical personalities is always three-dimensional. Take Cicero, who is characterized as pompous, ambitious, manipulative, and a downright prig, but also in the end as honestly concerned for the Republic. In the third of the Roma Sub Rosa novels, Catilina's Riddle, he says at one point to Gordianus that he knows he lacks charme and charisma (as opposed to Catilina - and, the reader can add, Caesar) but that it will be the charming, charismatic men who bring Rome down.
Speaking of Catilina, he's another fascinating character, very ambiguous - Gordianus keeps being in two minds about him while acknowledging the charme and the attraction. (Meanwhile, Saylor makes a plausible case for much of Catilina's reputation being due to propaganda during election campaigns and then the defeat of his uprising while pointing out that this doesn't necessarily mean Catilina was sincere.)
And then there's Clodia Pulcher. The Clodia which the poet Catullus, who was in love with her, both cursed and adored. (If you're into hate/love relationships, Catullus' poems are first class examples.) Now in detective stories, sexual women are usually either femme fatales, destined for a tragic ends, or vicious sluts, who also end badly. Clodia in Saylor's version is neither. (Though readers will start out reading her as a femme fatale in the first novel she appears in, The Venus Throw. Gordianus originally makes the same mistake.) She's capable of both casual sex and deep emotional committment (though not necessarily to the men she has sex with), cruelty and compassion. There is something broken in her, but she is a survivor. (As opposed to, say Catilina.)
Lastly, the ongoing OC characters, if you allow the fanfic term, Gordianus' family, all develop and change, as does his relationship with each of them. And again, they're not a 20th century family. When Gordianus, in one of the later novels, makes a decision about one of his sons, it is very much the act of a pater familias. You understand his reasons because you have been drawn into his world, instead of him acting out in a manner according to yours.
An a completely different note, the entry over at
theatrical_muse made for Frodo in reply to the "If you could dine with anyone of all of history, who would it be?" challenge is touching and perfectly in character; read it here.And
elz has made Frodo-and-the-ring wallpaper, which tempts me to cry all over again each time I look at it...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-02-08 10:58 am (UTC)I agree entirely that the Gordianus mysteries are by far the best of the genre. Saylor's understanding of the period is better than anyone's - his research is as good as Colleen McCullough's and the writing is far better.
Did you catch the quasi-slashy seduction scene between Catilina and Gordianus? Very clever, because you'll almsot miss it if you aren't paying attention; and incredibly seductive. It helps that Saylor, who's gay himself, wrote several books of gay erotica (under the pen-name Aaron Travis.)
Vivat Saylor!
Date: 2004-02-08 11:04 am (UTC)Oh, and thank you for reviewing my SW story!
Re: Vivat Saylor!
Date: 2004-02-08 11:46 am (UTC)I tend to be with you on erotic writing (and the <i>insert-peg-A-into-hole-B</i>, by-the-numbers-porn kind of stories are the worst.) This being said, every now and then, a very explicit story also works - it's all in the writing...
Re: Vivat Saylor!
Date: 2004-02-08 10:27 pm (UTC)Slash in SW: I'm more or less neutral on this. I didn't get any slashy vibes from any of the characters, plus Wedge is just a name without a personality in the movies. Luke/Han would have the obvious problem of both of them being attracted to Leia during much of the canon, but slashers (and gen 'shippers, let's be equal here) have ignored canon relationships in lots of fandoms in favour of the pairing they wanted to write about.
As for Qui/Obi, my single objection wouldn't be the slash but the fact they're mentor and student which is one of my very few squicks. Hence also my dislike for Buffy/Giles in BTVS, Duncan/Richie in HL, and a couple of similar cases.
Re: Vivat Saylor!
Date: 2004-02-09 08:36 am (UTC)I can actually take mentor/student slash when it's well-done (couldn't go for any Snarry otherwise) because a good writer can either avoid the obvious pitfalls, or even weave them into the story (it's not always the teacher who's the weaker partner in such an unequal relationship; or the story can be about sublimating the relationship until the younger character comes of age, or the nature of the relationship changes, or...) And there is a very old historical tradition here; the Socratic/Ancient Greece one; "mentoring" was exactly about this kind if relationship 2,500 years ago.
And I do love
Re: Vivat Saylor!
Date: 2004-02-09 10:50 am (UTC)Thank you - I'd be flattered.
Wooden dialogue: I wouldn't hire GL as a scriptwriter, either. The ideal SW film, I suppose, would be one that combines his visual imagination - and his storyline - with a script by Joss Whedon or Aaron Sorkin.
Was there anything duller than the underwater chase in TPM?
The motorbike chase sequence from RotK?*g* I fast forward through both.
Or even the darn Boonta Eve race?
Now that one I did like, and do not fast forward through it upon rewatching. But my favourite Obligatory Lucas Chase Sequence from the prequels is the one with Anakin and Obi-Wan after Zam from AotC.
Terry Brooks's wooden novelization of TPM
Terry Brooks writes wooden, full stop. (Agreed about Jar-Jar, though.) Don't even bother with the Shannara stuff - very second rate LotR imitation.
But then the novelisation for AotC by what's-his-name is even worse. Ironically, the kid version for the young adult novels, written by another writer but presumably based on the same script, actually reads better and really bothers to interpret the characters' motives, and the author comes up with some good ideas (such as Anakin's momentary hesitation about rescuing Obi-Wan after talking to Mace Windu being a mixture of a) fearing to be confronted with another dead parent, and b) fear and shame that Obi-Wan, when alive, will find out what happened with the Tuskens.
I can actually take mentor/student slash when it's well-done (couldn't go for any Snarry otherwise)
Ah, there you have me. The occasional Snarry is my secret vice. I tell myself when indulging that I mostly go for fics where Harry is an adult or at least ca. 16, that it's a fascinating relationship in canon, with scenes like those in OotP which could be interpreted as subtexty, and most importantly, that Snape at no point is a father figure. Because I think that my squick is mostly based on the mentor in question being in loco parentes in the original text. Which is true for Buffy and Giles, or Richie and Duncan. With Obi and Qui, it's more open to debate, but since the Padawan/Master relationship obviously starts when the Padawan is still a kid, it's quite likely.
And there is a very old historical tradition here; the Socratic/Ancient Greece one; "mentoring" was exactly about this kind if relationship 2,500 years ago.
True enough, but again, in those relationships, the older man did not take the place of the father as well.
(BTW this reminds me again of the slashy scene between Catilina and Gordianus where Catilina implies that Gordianus' adoption by his sons was at least partly fueled by wanting to sublimate an affection he otherwise couldn't admit to himself into a safe parent/child bond. Which might or might not be true, but it's clear from the novels that the boys see him as their father, and that anything else would result in a complete mess.)
no subject
Date: 2004-02-08 11:49 am (UTC)I'm not so fond of Maddox's characters, therefore I don't like the series this much. But Saylor, I really love, because he gives me a better feeling for the period and the life in Ancient Rome. I have read them almost all. "Catilina's Riddle" is one of my favourite, just because of the wonderful ambivalence of the portrayal of Catilina, and the slash, because I'm helpless. I also like the way how the stories pick up what I had to learn for the great Latinum, and use all these speeches of Cicero poor students have to translate.
Have a good day.
^_^
Re:
Date: 2004-02-08 10:30 pm (UTC)Lord yes, those speeches of Cicero. I had to translate them, too, in tandem with Sallust's history of the conspiracy...
Re:
Date: 2004-02-09 08:38 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-09 09:29 am (UTC)The speeches: wouldn't you love to see Cicero let loose on Donald Rumsfeld?
Quo usque tandam, Rummy, abutere patientia nostra...
Date: 2004-02-09 10:49 am (UTC)Quousque tandam, Rummy, abutere patientia nostra... well, I *like* Rummy, but wouldn't have minded seeing Marcus Tullius let loose on Clinton... *g*
no subject
Date: 2004-02-08 02:49 pm (UTC)Of course for all I know one already exists in Tales of the Slayer.
Not in the comic by the ME writers certainly. It jumps from the First Slayer to a creepy medieval story by Joss.
Which reminds me: in the last decade or so, detective stories set in Ancient Rome have become quite popular.
That was extremely obvious in my Friday trip to Murder One. Roman detectives everywhere! I very much enjoy the Steven Saylor books but sometimes Lindsey Davis's deliberate anachronism has a shock value that brings the period alive for me. I think the earlier books did this better when Falco was living in what amounted to the Roman equivalent of a jerry-built high-rise flat. The modern language made life in Rome more vivid, while still being historically accurate.
(If you're into hate/love relationships, Catullus' poems are first class examples.)
One of the few times a Latin O Level come in handy. We *had* to read them *g*.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-08 10:32 pm (UTC)Not in the comic by the ME writers certainly. It jumps from the First Slayer to a creepy medieval story by Joss.
Hm.... must mull this over....
no subject
Date: 2004-02-10 06:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-10 09:58 am (UTC)