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selenakIn this interview with Marvel honcho Kevin Feige, the passage about Black Widow made me dance the dance of joy. Then he goes on to discuss the question of female superheroines and whether or not they'll fair well on screen:
Q: There’s been talk of Scarlett Johansson’s Black Widow getting her own spin-off films. How far along are we from seeing the next female superheroine in her own story?
A: Well, I think you saw it in Avengers. I think that’s one of the many amazing things Joss Whedon can do. I think people are going to be surprised by how powerful Scarlett is in this movie, and how evolved her role is. We have already planned her next appearances and where to take that character because we believe in it and we believe in her in a big, big way. When will there be a standalone? Both is what we’re heading toward. A lot of it is that we’re only going to make two movies a year, maybe sometimes it’ll be one movie a year like this year, maybe someday it’ll be three movies a year just depending on what comes together. But really, it’s two movies. So there’s kind of a backup on the runway right now in terms of when can something go. We do like when some of the characters appear in other people’s movies.
Q: Everybody likes that!
A: Yeah. And that’s probably where you’ll see Black Widow next. But my favorite scene in Avengers is when Loki and Widow are having their scene together and Loki’s in a cell, and he’s trying to rile her up by mentioning things like “the hospital fire.” Who knows what those things are? We haven’t seen any of those things in other movies! What were those things, what do they mean? I love that. I’d love to explore that deeper.
Q: My experience in watching Avengers was that I left wanting to see a lot more of Hawkeye and Black Widow. There’s always traditionally a romance element to these movies, but that was the pairing I wanted to see much more of. Maybe I’ll make my own fan fiction… (You and hundreds of fans, journalist, I hope, says this ljler.)
A: [Laughs] That’s great.
(...)
Q: Going back to the subject of women and the female presence in this community, obviously you’re trying to make four-quadrant movies here.
A: I hope so.
Q: What do you think is the primary reason behind the lack of female superhero stories in this genre? Are they trickier to tell, address different kinds of themes?
A: No – I think there were some bad ones, and they got a bad rap because they weren’t particularly good and they didn’t make a lot of money. There’s a movie called The Hunger Games that came out a few weeks ago, and just because it’s not based on a comic doesn’t mean that’s not a female superhero movie. That’s what she is. And it did tremendously well. So I think when they’re done well, the audience will come to it.
Q: When in your estimation have they been done well before?
A: Well, I would say Kill Bill, or I could go as far back as Alien and Aliens. When they’re done good, they are just awesome hero movies. It’s only when they don’t do well that they say, "Oh, it’s because it was about a woman." No, it’s because the movie was bad.
Q: How do you feel about a movie like Elektra, then?
A: [Pauses] Did you enjoy that movie?
Q: I enjoyed… parts of that movie.
A: Right. [Smiling] I think if that had been a better movie, more people would have come to see it.
Very true, and of course common sense, but it's still (sadly) not something I'm used to hear someone on the producer side stating (they previously were more inclined to mutter something about men and women both going to films about men but men not going to films about women), so I'm glad to read it now. And of course now I'm hoping for that backstory/origin tale more fervently than ever.
Mind you, I hope they'll have someone write/direct it who keeps that balance The Avengers struck with Natasha and her relationships. What made movieverse Black Widow & Hawkeye or Black Widow/Hawkeye, depending on how you interpret the relationship, instantly appealing was the sense they'd seen each other at their worst and had each other's back, but also the fierce competence. . Being recently burned by certain shows who made their heroines throw every other relationship and experience in their lives away for their One True Love, what impressed me here was that while the film made it clear Natasha was incredibly invested in getting Clint de-thralled and out of Loki's power (alive), this was not her only motivation, and she didn't spend her time pining. She focused on the job(s) at hand. And their scene after he was compos mentis again had this incredible emotional intimacy and was hurt/comfort done right because of what was not said as much as what was said. What they focused on. He didn't ask "did I hurt you?", he asked "how many people did I kill?". She didn't say "I'm so glad to have you back" let alone "I love you", she said "don't do this to yourself" and "it was Loki". The sense of reciprocrated trust when she talked about the red in her ledger. They also make a captivating combination because of the equality in shades of grey in them. Neither of them is a figure of light morally elevating the other. So, here's what I wouldn't want in a BW origin film:Peter Bishop William Adama either Hawkeye or another male character as Natasha's core of existence and thief of story. As long as that's avoided, bring on Black Widow: The Movie!
Incidentally, also mentioned in the flurry of interviews making the rounds now was Iron Man 3, which as I said I'm not nearly as curious about as the next Avengers installment, but when Feigner said Tony would be isolated in that one and would not be able to call anyone for help (makes sense; they need a Watsonian reason for the other Avengers not to show up in an emergency after this film) and compared the situation he would be in to the cave in Afghanistan, I suddenly had an inkling about which comicverse storyline they might be adapting (loosely). One of the crackiest yet irresistable ones, which is the sole reason why despite his partly infuriating decisions (*cough* Brand New Day *cough*) as chief editor of Marvel I can't hate Joe Quesada, because back in his writing days he penned the tale of how Tony Stark's armor gets sentient and turns into an abusive boyfriend who after getting rid of his girlfriend (not Pepper in the comics, that was the era of Rumiko, but I suppose it will be Pepper in the film if they really adapt this) and ruining his reputation kidnaps him to a lonely island to have it out with Tony and his constantly armor-changing ways, complete with "you never truly loved me" etc. and stripping him naked. After a few days of survivor games on the desert island where Tony has to use all his wits (since tech isn't an option) we get the grand climax in which inevitably the arc reactor that keeps him alive has the obligatory malfunction and the armor realises without Tony there is no point to existence. Presumably a film adaption would come up with something different. :)
Q: There’s been talk of Scarlett Johansson’s Black Widow getting her own spin-off films. How far along are we from seeing the next female superheroine in her own story?
A: Well, I think you saw it in Avengers. I think that’s one of the many amazing things Joss Whedon can do. I think people are going to be surprised by how powerful Scarlett is in this movie, and how evolved her role is. We have already planned her next appearances and where to take that character because we believe in it and we believe in her in a big, big way. When will there be a standalone? Both is what we’re heading toward. A lot of it is that we’re only going to make two movies a year, maybe sometimes it’ll be one movie a year like this year, maybe someday it’ll be three movies a year just depending on what comes together. But really, it’s two movies. So there’s kind of a backup on the runway right now in terms of when can something go. We do like when some of the characters appear in other people’s movies.
Q: Everybody likes that!
A: Yeah. And that’s probably where you’ll see Black Widow next. But my favorite scene in Avengers is when Loki and Widow are having their scene together and Loki’s in a cell, and he’s trying to rile her up by mentioning things like “the hospital fire.” Who knows what those things are? We haven’t seen any of those things in other movies! What were those things, what do they mean? I love that. I’d love to explore that deeper.
Q: My experience in watching Avengers was that I left wanting to see a lot more of Hawkeye and Black Widow. There’s always traditionally a romance element to these movies, but that was the pairing I wanted to see much more of. Maybe I’ll make my own fan fiction… (You and hundreds of fans, journalist, I hope, says this ljler.)
A: [Laughs] That’s great.
(...)
Q: Going back to the subject of women and the female presence in this community, obviously you’re trying to make four-quadrant movies here.
A: I hope so.
Q: What do you think is the primary reason behind the lack of female superhero stories in this genre? Are they trickier to tell, address different kinds of themes?
A: No – I think there were some bad ones, and they got a bad rap because they weren’t particularly good and they didn’t make a lot of money. There’s a movie called The Hunger Games that came out a few weeks ago, and just because it’s not based on a comic doesn’t mean that’s not a female superhero movie. That’s what she is. And it did tremendously well. So I think when they’re done well, the audience will come to it.
Q: When in your estimation have they been done well before?
A: Well, I would say Kill Bill, or I could go as far back as Alien and Aliens. When they’re done good, they are just awesome hero movies. It’s only when they don’t do well that they say, "Oh, it’s because it was about a woman." No, it’s because the movie was bad.
Q: How do you feel about a movie like Elektra, then?
A: [Pauses] Did you enjoy that movie?
Q: I enjoyed… parts of that movie.
A: Right. [Smiling] I think if that had been a better movie, more people would have come to see it.
Very true, and of course common sense, but it's still (sadly) not something I'm used to hear someone on the producer side stating (they previously were more inclined to mutter something about men and women both going to films about men but men not going to films about women), so I'm glad to read it now. And of course now I'm hoping for that backstory/origin tale more fervently than ever.
Mind you, I hope they'll have someone write/direct it who keeps that balance The Avengers struck with Natasha and her relationships. What made movieverse Black Widow & Hawkeye or Black Widow/Hawkeye, depending on how you interpret the relationship, instantly appealing was the sense they'd seen each other at their worst and had each other's back, but also the fierce competence. . Being recently burned by certain shows who made their heroines throw every other relationship and experience in their lives away for their One True Love, what impressed me here was that while the film made it clear Natasha was incredibly invested in getting Clint de-thralled and out of Loki's power (alive), this was not her only motivation, and she didn't spend her time pining. She focused on the job(s) at hand. And their scene after he was compos mentis again had this incredible emotional intimacy and was hurt/comfort done right because of what was not said as much as what was said. What they focused on. He didn't ask "did I hurt you?", he asked "how many people did I kill?". She didn't say "I'm so glad to have you back" let alone "I love you", she said "don't do this to yourself" and "it was Loki". The sense of reciprocrated trust when she talked about the red in her ledger. They also make a captivating combination because of the equality in shades of grey in them. Neither of them is a figure of light morally elevating the other. So, here's what I wouldn't want in a BW origin film:
Incidentally, also mentioned in the flurry of interviews making the rounds now was Iron Man 3, which as I said I'm not nearly as curious about as the next Avengers installment, but when Feigner said Tony would be isolated in that one and would not be able to call anyone for help (makes sense; they need a Watsonian reason for the other Avengers not to show up in an emergency after this film) and compared the situation he would be in to the cave in Afghanistan, I suddenly had an inkling about which comicverse storyline they might be adapting (loosely). One of the crackiest yet irresistable ones, which is the sole reason why despite his partly infuriating decisions (*cough* Brand New Day *cough*) as chief editor of Marvel I can't hate Joe Quesada, because back in his writing days he penned the tale of how Tony Stark's armor gets sentient and turns into an abusive boyfriend who after getting rid of his girlfriend (not Pepper in the comics, that was the era of Rumiko, but I suppose it will be Pepper in the film if they really adapt this) and ruining his reputation kidnaps him to a lonely island to have it out with Tony and his constantly armor-changing ways, complete with "you never truly loved me" etc. and stripping him naked. After a few days of survivor games on the desert island where Tony has to use all his wits (since tech isn't an option) we get the grand climax in which inevitably the arc reactor that keeps him alive has the obligatory malfunction and the armor realises without Tony there is no point to existence. Presumably a film adaption would come up with something different. :)
no subject
Date: 2012-05-02 05:12 pm (UTC)I can't wait to see this movie. So close!
no subject
Date: 2012-05-02 07:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-04 06:22 pm (UTC)I also loved the point towards Katniss/Hunger Games and even pointing to all the other good action movies with heroines. People who say women can't be heros in blockbusters ignore reality and look only at a selection of very bad films and it's nice to see someone in a place of some kind of media power recognize that.
no subject
Date: 2012-05-04 07:04 pm (UTC)it's nice to see someone in a place of some kind of media power recognize that
Yes indeed, and since Mr. Feige seems to be the current head of the Marvel film branch, this augurs very well indeed for future movies. Pitty they still can't get the X-Men back from Fox. :(
no subject
Date: 2012-05-02 06:44 pm (UTC)Also ITA regarding the deft handling of Natasha and Clint in the movie. Natasha tricking Loki -- the trickster god himself! -- by playing on his (and our) assumptions about her feelings is one of my favourite scenes.
Spoilers for the film in this reply
Date: 2012-05-02 07:32 pm (UTC)Yes, indeed. Btw, while I agree that he wasn't cut off from his usual resources in Avengers, either, I was happy that the film kept being aware he's an engineer and inventor (just as with the constant awareness Natasha is a spy, Bruce a scientist etc.) not just via dialogue but in action - so when the Helicarrier is attacked what he does is emergency repairs, for example, and of course he would hack into SHIELD's files.
The comics did the sentient suit thing more than once - well, with decades of comics, they would - but the Bad Boyfriend variation is really the best known and the one that would qualify for a Tony-is-literally-stripped-of-everything-but-his-intelligence tale. And hey, presumably the movie suit would speak with Paul Bettany's voice like JARVIS does, so.
Natasha tricking Loki -- the trickster god himself! -- by playing on his (and our) assumptions about her feelings is one of my favourite scenes.
And I love that we even got fair warning for this through the way the film introduced her, which was another case of Natasha pretending to be desperate and the one being questioned while in actuality being the one in control of the situation, and when she turned around in the Loki scene the audience in my cinema gasped along with Loki.
Mind you: half of why she could trick him is that she didn't lie - as he said, under-the-thrall Clint told Loki everything about her, which she must have been prepared for. Nothing she said to Loki was false as such (we later hear the "red in her ledger" really does weigh on her) - but what he was tricked about was her reason for telling him this, and so he gives himself away. (Reminds me a bit of why, according to biographers, Truman Capote was able to get Perry White, one of the killers from Cold Blood to talk to him about the murder - he revealed some very intimate details about his own childhood and life first, and they were true.)
Re: Spoilers for the film in this reply
Date: 2012-05-04 06:25 pm (UTC)My friends and I were talking about this after the movie. That she's willing to put herself all out there like that and play on people's expectations of her feelings, real feelings she has, to manipulate them.
Re: Spoilers for the film in this reply
Date: 2012-05-04 07:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-03 06:18 am (UTC)My suspicions given that description is that Tony will get kidnapped by some developing-world person in a story which, like parts of IM2, will toy with the idea of actually confronting the political implications of Tony's role and personality before wimping out into "but it's all OK because he's a nice guy deep down".
no subject
Date: 2012-05-03 02:20 pm (UTC)