Um.

[selenak]

All the prompts given for this year's Yuletide are now visible, here, so naturally I spent the last 24 hours reading through them, as much as real life would allow. Quite a lot of them made me go "oh, I hope someone has done something with that one". Several made me think "hm, I could work with that, but not on short notice, I'd want to do source research first". One spawned the tiniest, tiniest bunny which is now hopping up and down and telling me I could pursue it even on short notice and without checking the source material again. "Bunny," quoth I, "I am with the Aged Parents now who need my help these last few days before Christmas. Get thee behind me. I've already written a treat." And now it's making Bigwig-defending-the-warren eyes at me.

....Anyway, one thing I could not help but notice is that an awful lot of prompts ask for "awesome ladies being awesome", the word "awesome" more often than not in capslock. While I sympathize with the sentiment and of course also wish the ladies in my various requests to be awesome, this is not, imo, a very helpful writing prompt. (Which is why I'm glad I was not given it.) Suggesting situations or asking for exploration of specific issues or relationships is. But requesting "awesomeness" is not only far too general but bound to give at least yours truly a headache because what makes character x awesome to me might not be exactly what would make her awesome to you. Also, does general awesomeness exclude exploration of flaws, yes or no? Etc.

You know which fictional work did a good in-story meta on this? Susanne Collins' Mockingjay, the third volume of the Hunger Games trilogy. Early on, the District 13 propaganda unit, wanting to use Katniss and her fame for the resistance, put her in front of a camera, give her a speech to recite and essentially tell her to be awesome. It's a complete disaster, and they can't understand why, since Katniss had come across as awesome in the previous broadcasts - mostly the Hunger Games, but also the Flickerman interviews - they've seen her in. And then Haymitch points out the obvious, that what made Katniss impressive to them then had been her actions and responses to situations she was in. Of course she can't be AWESOME on demand. You have to bring her in situations that allow her to show her qualities. As the kids say these days, this. And that. And also the other. Err, I mean: it's just not a helpful prompt, is all.

Comments

[likeadeuce]

And now it's making Bigwig-defending-the-warren eyes at me.

I must say, I will NEVER think of the "plot bunny" metaphor the same again.

[selenak]

I live to serve. :) *doesn't have a Watership Down icon*

[likeadeuce]

Oh, don't worry, I saw that when I was 7 or 8. It is burned into my brain.

[havocthecat]

On the other hand, sometimes "awesome" is short for "please focus on these women; I don't want to turn you off the prompt by being overly detailed." Striking that balance between explanation and really needing to just stop now is difficult, even with the longer format of a DA letter.

[musesfool]

Yeah, speaking as someone who used the exact phrase AWESOME LADIES BEING AWESOME twice in my prompts, it was simply a starting point to emphasize that I wanted stories that focused on the ladies and I wanted them to be their competent selves, to be great in the way they were in the source texts.

[selenak]

*nods* I get that. But, depending on the canon, it still can be confusing (always imo, of course) for a writer. Your icon inspires me to use Firefly as an example. Say you'd ask for a River story and used the "awesome ladies being awesome" description. It would tell me that you're not likely to want, say, a story about River in the Alliance's hands before Simon rescues her, and are more likely to want a story about River saving the day during the tv series or post movie canon era. But how about a story that explores Kaylee's unease towards River after seeing her in action as a ninja for the first time, which definitely marked a change in Kaylee's behavior towards her? Or a story about how River sometimes manages to communicate with her crewmates and sometimes just can't because of the different way she experiences reality, and how this can be incredibly frustrating and heartrendering for her? In the hypothetical situation where I'd get a prompt for a River-focused story that only specified "ladies being awesome", I would worry that this isn't what the recipient wants because it's not exactly River triumphant.

[musesfool]

If that were my assignment, and there really is no other information available - no LJ/DW/tumblr to rifle through, no letter, no fic written or recced in public to use as a guide to their tastes - I would ask Elyn to email the person about their likes/dislikes, and if they don't respond, then yeah, they get whatever my version of awesome is. (Otoh, I actually did have this experience my second yuletide - the person had no web presence that I could detect and had left no optional details at all - she chose one character from the source we matched on with absolutely no other information, and I just wrote a gen story about them and hoped it was what she wanted.)

I think the phrase is simply squee - that's how I've used it and how I interpret it when others do. It means (and I think I actually say this in my prompts) that I love these ladies and want to read more about them. And if I haven't provided any other details (which I actually did, but I guess you're saying some people didn't), then any of the stories you listed above would be fair play.

It's no less vague or useful than "I love these characters and would be happy with anything!" It's an issue of the rest of the optional details lacking, well, detail, not the phrase itself.

Let's face it, some people don't want any detail in their prompts, and some people want a lot, and striking a good balance between offering sparking points v. outlining the story v. not giving anything at all is difficult; no matter how you write your prompts, eventually you're going to get matched to someone who gets inspired in exactly the opposite way. I guess my peeves about prompts lie in a different area altogether, because I never thought that squeeing about characters I love was a problem - I figured that if you've offered the characters I've requested, you probably love them too.

[selenak]

As a writer, I'd be more comfortable with "focus on these women", though it's as general as "women being awesome"; perhaps because it makes me feel less worried as to whether I've written the women awesome enough and more free to explore? Though likeadeuce makes a good argument below that "awesome" does give a useful clue as to the tone the recipient wants. I.e. someone who'd like an angsty hurt/comfort tale is probably not going to use the "awesome" description, and vice versa, someone using it probably doesn't want a story in which two thirds are about the character(s) being shattered and struggling to recover from trauma xyz. Both types of stories would qualify as under the "focus on" description, so the "awesome" tag is more specific.

[muccamukk]

If that's the only prompt, it's not really very helpful, no. It's shorthand sure, but there really does need to be more prompt.

I read a fic in a exchange recently where the author took every female character the recip asked for and put them in a fic together all being completely competent and it was... really, really boring.

I love all of those characters, and I want to read more about them, but for me awesome ladies needs to come with some kind of conflict and depth. The phrase itself really needs to come with some kind of context, like you said.

AWESOME LADIES and a prompt, is fine; I can write that. But why not just list the characters you want, and list what aspect of them you like? Or something more descriptive. I don't find the phrase on it's own that helpful, and it can actually feel little stifling.

[likeadeuce]

Stifling how?

I'm trying to settle my own thoughts on this so I'm curious how it strikes you.

[muccamukk]

Well, I start to worry if they're not being awesome enough in the story. My style doesn't tend to badass action scenes on the whole (I can write them in context, but mostly I write about people being screwed up next to each other). So I'd worry if I were writing, say, Jessica Jones as the glorious disaster of a human being that we all know and love, that that might not be what my recip wants. Maybe she just wants Jess to solve crime and kick people in the head or something.

I like awesome including flaws, and find the phrase "awesome ladies being awesome" to have shades of Beaton's "stong female characters." I know that's not how it's meant, but with little other specification in a lot of cases, I don't know how it IS meant.

[likeadeuce]

But isn't that true of any non-specific direction? I see the point but I also don't want people to feel they shouldn't put anything in a prompt that they can't prove via scientific formula.

Is it particularly here that it seems like they're asking for the character to have no flaws? I wouldn't personally interpret it that way, particularly if they ask for a character like Jessica.

[muccamukk]

You're right, it is, but in this it has the overtone of "Doing feminism wrong" if I don't hit the right awesome quota or something like that. Is she going to be awesome enough? How many flaws can I include before it stops being awesome? If I fail at this, am I just one of those slashers who doesn't care about female characters?

It's not a huge issue, but on its own, that request is unhelpful at best, and stifling at worst, and even with an actual prompt, I'm not a fan. It doesn't add anything to what you actually want me to write, and it can come across as trying for feminist cred or something? Like it's not enough to want a story about a female character (which is what you've asked for in the first place), but she has to be extra special AWESOME, because women are awesome, right? And yeah, sure, I agree, they are. If I've offered that character, I probably like her a lot and want to write a story about her. Neither of us should have anything to prove there, so why do I end up feeling like I'm in a strap on fight?

Apparently I have issues. I do see the points from the posters above (both of whom I respect enormously as writers), but I don't like the phrase.

[likeadeuce]

I understand where you're coming from, but I personally just read it as an expression of enthusiasm for the character/the inclusion of female characters. People certainly express enthusiasm for male characters in their prompts, even if it's phrased somewhat differently? Is a femslash-oriented writer who happens to offer and draw a m/m prompt that raves about pretty boys and ho-yay entitled to be equally put off? (It's valid to say that --a-- they're entitled and --b-- they probably WILL be put off & express that, which may be true.)

I personally try to be specific about what I want and I don't think I'd use the particular "awesome ladies being awesome" phrase, but I find it helpful to get general as well as specific ideas about a recipient's preferences. Specifically, the "awesome" prompt might drive me toward a more happy/positive spin or ending on the story than if I got a prompt where the writer said they were into emotional damage and angst.

[muccamukk]

Well, it's fandom. We do entitled well, so I'd say go for it.

But yeah, the phrasing on the m/m prompts, especially things like "So gay for each other" can be off putting as well. There's a tonne of things I find irritating in prompts. The awesome phrase pings me more right now because it seems to be both new(ish) and ubiquitous. (And it's the topic of today's conversation).

It can totally be used as an indication of tone, except when it can't because the recip asked for a different tone elsewhere, but still wants the awesome ladies.

I absolutely get that people's mileage varies on it. For me it's more or less a waste of words that could be better spent elsewhere.

selenak. HI! We're taking over your comments section apparently?

[selenak]

You're welcome to do so! You're both making smart arguments and articulating what I've been struggling with in my post.

[saturnofthemoon]

I tagged one of my fics as "women being awesome", but it was more of a "yay, a story about female characters" thing.

[selenak]

As a reader, descriptions on, say, rec lists that include "y being awesome" or "women being awesome" definitely make me inclined to click on the story in question. It's just that to get inspired as a writer, I need more.

[meri]

I do love "ladies being AWESOME" tags on AO3 because it lets me know the writer has similar interests as me (ladies, them being awesome, to name two) but as a prompt there is a certain something missing.

[selenak]

Yes, as a reader, "Y and Y being awesome" or "ladies being awesome" would make me click on a story. But as a writer, I need more to get inspired.