Various

[selenak]

So The Good Wife is finally coming to an end? Two seasons too late for me to care, but it was once an amazing show.

New Civil War trailer: so I was hoping that movie would resolve my Bucky problem, to whit, that I'm indifferent to the character beyond a mild "gosh, what an awful brainwashed life", and indeed I'm starting to have Bucky feelings, but unfortunately, they're all negative ones. I'm completely invested in the wrong sidekick in this movie, because when I watched the trailer and they showed that close up on unconscious/dead Rhodey again, my instinctive feeling was "feel free to tear anyone apart who did this, Tony, especially if it's bloody Bucky; die, Bucky, die die die!". I still cling to the hope they won't kill off Rhodey in a non-Iron Man movie, of course, but my emotional investment here is solidly on Team Iron Man so far. Unless Natasha is a double again, which I really hope she won't be, because Natasha faking being on the registration side of things as a mole for Steve would be predictable and not emotionally interesting at all, whereas Natasha fighting on Tony's side because, much as she cares about him, she truly believes Steve is wrong in this matter is exactly the kind of angst and character progress I'm looking for. Natasha, post Red Room, has gone from just out for yourself to fighting for specific people she's loyal to, to caring about the right and wrong of causes beyond "are they represented by people I care about?", and ironically I think the friendship with Steve helped her with that. Ditto her relationship with Clint - who is on Steve's side - and all this makes me majorly invested in Natasha NOT being a mole but having made the monumental decision of going against her best friends because she truly believes they are doing the wrong thing. To use an Harry Potter comparison: what Neville does in the first novel and which Dumbledore later calls an example of the highest courage, the thing Remus Lupin never could do back in Marauders versus Snape time. Standing up for your principles against bad tyrants takes courage, yes, but standing up for your principles against your dearest friends? The hardest thing of all.

(It helps that I do think superheroes should be accountable to someone who aren't other superheroes. Not insane military generals, obviously, but definitely some institution.)

Black Sails not having much of a fandom on lj or dw, I'm driven to check out the dark side tumblr now and then, and predictably, this irritates me into the need to vent:



1.) Boo, hiss, on anyone complaining about Flint's grief for Miranda being "Thomas erasure" or "heteronormative retconning" or what not. Because canon does so much better with this OT3 than a good deal of fanfiction, which had Flint caring for Miranda only as a living reminder of Thomas. Thus falling into the classic fanfic m/m/f pattern where the woman only gets to be an encouraging Yenta and at best gets to get off at the sight of the guys making out with each other. Whereas Black Sails provided me with my canonical threesome in every sense, where all three truly deeply cared about each other in every direction, not a triangle with two only invested in a third, not each other. Of course Thomas - and losing Thomas - was a big, big element in the relationship between James and Miranda. But they lived together for a decade after losing Thomas. We don't know how long Thomas and Miranda had been married before encountering James McGraw, but that's certainly far longer than James ever knew Thomas (which was at best a year or so). And Thomas never "met" Flint, never saw James' dark side, whereas Miranda was present for its birth (and partially responsible because she wanted revenge for Thomas, too, which was why she insisted on coming to South Carolina as well to be judged, remember). She was the only character on Black Sails so far who knew both James McGraw and James Flint, who saw the best and worst of him in equal. Just, btw, as he knew both Lady Hamilton and Miranda Barlow. That was what their mutual "I recognize you" in the last but one episode of the previous season had been about, remember? So Flint grieving for Miranda as Miranda, not just as "my last living link to Thomas", is earned.

2.) Billy/Flint shippers seem to be pretty confident their ship will become canon this season. Which isn't impossible, because this is the show which does on screen m/m, but I wish people wouldn't resort to the "if it doesn't, TPTB are selling out gay rights because the only blow for m/m to be struck is this ship becoming canon". Just say that you want Billy/Flint because you like both characters, not because it's important for social justice, or else you beg for the follow up question "so if Flint/another male character" gets to be canon instead, you'd be fine with it as well?

3.) Anyone condemning Eleanor for working with Rodgers: feel free to volunteer for hanging in a similar situation. As for her getting him to single out Charles Vane as the one who doesn't get a pardon but gets a bounty on his head instead: methinks Eleanor got the message last season when Vane killed her father and said they would meet again loud and clear. She never was a nice person and always favoured the "strike first" approach.

Lastly, trying to find good Clone Wars inspired stories reminds me how many badly spelled and/or badly written fanfiction is out there. Good lord. Thankfully, there are a few bright lights.

Comments

[bimo]

Thankfully, there are a few bright lights.

For OuaT fandom on Tumblr, the situation is pretty much the same. Lots of atrocious hating, entitlement issues and stupidity going on there. (Don't ask...)

I checked out Tumblr in last December, mostly due to the lack of interesting OuaT discussion on LJ (apart from Astrogirl, there is none these days), was instantly appalled by what is going on there, and would never have taken a second look if I hadn't encountered a handful of friendly, non-hating people writing intriguing stuff on a regular basis.

[selenak]

Back when I was avidly watching OuaT, I had the same problem. If I want to feel like being imprisoned in a CSU Parteitag, Tumblr is the way to do it, in any fandom, save for a few, alas...

[wee_warrior]

Just say that you want Billy/Flint because you like both characters, not because it's important for social justice, or else you beg for the follow up question "so if Flint/another male character" gets to be canon instead, you'd be fine with it as well?

Oh, but if anyone on tumblr admitted this, they would have to come off their moral high horse and concede that most reasons for liking a show, ship or character are at best a mix of interest in social relevance of the material and emotional investment in specific narratives and tropes. Most of them aren't that self-aware. (And yes, there is the question why one doesn't leave; alas, since Teen Wolf fandom skewers young, most of the "discussion" actually happens there.)

[selenak]

Oh, but if anyone on tumblr admitted this, they would have to come off their moral high horse and concede that most reasons for liking a show, ship or character are at best a mix of interest in social relevance of the material and emotional investment in specific narratives and tropes.

Quite. I'm trying to decide when "my ship needs to be canon FOR GREATER JUSTICE" as opposed to "my ship needs to be becaus I like it" or even "my ship needs to be because best chemistry/actors hot/whatever" became such a thing, and the first time I really noticed was when the Star Trek Reboot got released and the Spock/Kirk versus Spock/Uhura battles centred on who had the most socially progressive argument on their side...

[wee_warrior]

At least some parts of slash fandom have developed into a really weird direction where this is concerned. Everything even remotely straight is normative and evil, while slash is automatically progressive (even if it's only that one pairing you really want). On the other hand, everyone who doesn't ship a pairing where the partners have different races will likely be called racist on tumblr.

Although even between shippers of het pairings there is some odd "my pairing is less problematic than yours, so it's canon!" thing going on (because healthiness always determines whether you like a couple. And no, they don't really know what canon means. Or Cannon, which is the fandom term typo that I still love by far the most.)

What creeps me slightly out about this is the prescriptive nature and very narrow definition of ship they seem to have. Not that I need people to constantly romanticize icky dynamics, but it's surely healthier if you, say, ship Edward/Bella in a safe, imaginary environment, and get it out of your system that way?

[wee_warrior]

ETA: I realize more and more that Heroes fandom actually formed my shipping tolerance to a great degree - I'm not overly fond of incest ships and likely never will be, but I can overlook it, and the whole Petrelli circus was still more harmless than all the serial killer + clueless professor stuff/various other characters that was going on (not to mention the older generation love fest).

[selenak]

O good lord, all the Sylar/Anyone pairings! I suspect Mohinder/Sylar shippers in particular all later became Hannibal (the series, not the book) fans. :) One of my anti pairings, but in retrospect I'm glad nobody cluttered the internet with essays about how morally wrong it was to ship it.

[muccamukk]

The het shippers have retaliated by saying that slash erases women, and is therefore bad (I will not argue that slashers have not treated female characters badly over the years, but ON THE WHOLE!), and het is the only progressive thing ever! Somehow femslash gets left out of this?

Save that I have recently been told that I should not ship two white women when there is a black man to ship one of the white women with, because otherwise I'm erasing the black man. (I will not argue that shippers have not ignored black characters in the past, but again!).

Shipping what you want because you like the pairing seems to be on its back foot, certainly.

[wee_warrior]

Yeah, shipping as a sign of progressiveness is something that I've always found a bit odd, but thinking that you're liberal for shipping het is even sillier. Femslash, meanwhile, seems to be in their own corner, as usual.

It's like you can't like white characters, especially not when they are male. They have to suck by default. I feel that is kind of approaching the problem from the wrong end.

And fandom is of course srs bsnss, so nothing can be done just because you like it.

[saturnofthemoon]

Just out of curiosity, was this Supergirl or Agent Carter? I've seen reactions like that in both fandoms.

[fallingtowers]

What creeps me slightly out about this is the prescriptive nature and very narrow definition of ship they seem to have.

Actually, I'm very tempted to start shipping stuff like Kylo/Rey purely out of spite and as a reaction to all that asinine moral pearl-clutching I've become aware of. (Note: I haven't even seen TFA yet.)

Fandom has reached the point where I just want to yell at everyone to quit their hand-wringing about ~problematic~ pairings. Because telling a group of girls / women that their romantic and/or erotic fantasies about purely fictional characters are wrong, morally suspect, unhealthy, and indeed support sexual assault and domestic abuse is totally feminist, self-aware, and progressive, right? Right?

Needless to say, tumblr and I don't get along.

[selenak]

Same here. I have my share of pairings that give me the creeps, and sometimes I can't stop myself from mentioning this in my journal. But I hope I've never declared "nobody must ship X/Y because it's so PROBLEMATIC" as opposed to some mutterings about how I personally can't stand x/y.

And the race about whose ship is the most socially progessive (complete with declaring all other ships as less so) is truly ridiculous.

[selenak]

. Not that I need people to constantly romanticize icky dynamics, but it's surely healthier if you, say, ship Edward/Bella in a safe, imaginary environment, and get it out of your system that way?

Absolutely. I mean, of course it's possible that an Edward/Bella shipper later hooks up with a stalkery abusive boyfriend and what not. But I've yet to see statistics showing a direct correlation between indulging in fantasies clearly marked as such and trying to live out such a dynamic in rl for a majority of people.

*uses icon of unhealthy pairing of choice*

[ratcreature]

Yeah, despite having plenty of Bucky feels, if there were actually superheroes performing defense and law enforcement duties, I'd be very much in favor of them having to be accountable to someone who is legitimized by more than some radioactive accident/experiment of one kind or another.

[selenak]

I'm aware institutional control doesn't guarantee anything - see current situation involving US cops and death rate of black men, among others - but it's certainly better than no control at all, or "we take care of our own" (who is we? Which we? And what if "we" don't agree?).

[ratcreature]

*nods*
Even corrupt or bad state institutions are better than none for controlling force, otherwise you just end up with competing warlordism. You can see right now how those places are the worst where the state monopoly on force has collapsed the most.

I mean, since I have strong anarchist leanings, I actually quite favor communal and decentralized self-organization based on consent as ideal over a "strong" state that organizes top-down and imposes force without asking, but that is not the kind of "anarchism" where self-declared "superhero" warlord groups run around amok with their private arsenal imposing force on the opposing "supervillain" warlord groups without prior consent from anyone, not even indirectly from a state.

[saturnofthemoon]

I joined tumblr because, like you, I had a fandom, Fringe, that was not very active on LJ/DW. Suffice it to say that I learned tumblr is fun if you stick to graphics and gifs, but terrible for discussion. To this day, the majority of the conversations over there give me a headache.

Hmm, that poly relationship and other things you mentioned about Black Sails sounds very appealing.

[selenak]

Here is an article I just read also expressing opinions on one of Black Sails' appeals. :)

Truly though, Black Sails does poly very well, with regard to each of the partners.

[saturnofthemoon]

And I am completely sold, although I probably won't have time to watch until the summer, when my other shows are on hiatus.

[muccamukk]

Agreed on all your feelings about Bucky, and most of your feelings about tumblr.

I'm mostly really hoping that Steve has an argument beyond, "But my friend!" (Why is Clint going along with this nonsense?) I will grant that Tony's last great idea was Ultron, so there could be trust issues there, and that I would not want Gen Ross to be the boss of me (or anyone else, really). But I'm still hoping that the trailers are hiding some other conflict, like they were hiding the Hydra thing in Cap 2.

[selenak]

Oh, I'm sure they do. Back when the Cap 2 trailers were shown, nobody guessed that Pierce's "you shaped the 20th century" speech was adressed to Bucky, not Steve, and NOBODY guessed the SHIELD = Hydra reveal.

[muccamukk]

I actually do know a couple people who called the speech being to Bucky, but certain no one on the Hydra thing! The complaint before hand was all that the trailer was showing too much, and they should leave more surprises!

[likeadeuce]

This is my hope on the 'Rhodey's not dead' front. The MCU trailers have been clever about not revealing big things up to this point, so I think there must be more to it than Rhodey filling the role Bill Foster did in comics Civil War.

I also am a bit put off by all the people complaining about Tony claiming he and Steve were friends, and this clearly being untrue because -- we haven't seen the first act of the movie yet, which is presumably where such a relationship would be established narratively because that's how movies work...? Of course I'm also put off by the idea that they have hated each other in the previous movies, because that's not what I see.

[muccamukk]

I just rewatched AoU where they were fighting like cats and dogs for much of it, and even then it wasn't that they hated each other, at least that wasn't the vibe I got. It was that they didn't agree on things, and argued about that. Like people do, even when they like each other.

The scene at the end actually made me ship them, which very little in the movies have done, as they seemed to be getting on so well that. Especially given Tony's slightly skewed relationship standards, it is totally basis for a friendship.

But now, half of my tumblr dash is screaming blue murder because Bucky and Steve are being *mean* to Tony, and the other half is accusing Tony of being a Nazi, basically.

Like you said in another thread. I miss meta.

[selenak]

Of course I'm also put off by the idea that they have hated each other in the previous movies, because that's not what I see.

Me neither. Mind you, I don't think they have the close relationship in the movies they have pre Civil War in the comics, but then they can't, because no years and years and years of working together. Otoh I see clear relationship progress even within Avengers from the uneasy awkwardness to fighting comradery, and by the time AoU happens they're certainly good team mates who are relaxed enough emotionally around each other that Steve enjoys being teased by Tony. (Not to mention that Tony's ultimate nightmare is "Disappointing Steve".)

A case could also be made that Steve in between Avenger movies, i.a. as of Cap II, thinks of Tony still as "Howard's kid: like Howard, only more so" with a mixture of nostalgia and annoyance, depending Tony's behavior of the day, but my sole indication for that is that in Cap II, Steve refers to the Stark men differently, Howard is "Howard" (in the scene where Steve and Natasha discover the base) while Tony is "Stark" (in the conversation with Nick Fury early in the movie).