The Defenders (Review)
Aug. 20th, 2017 10:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakReader, I marathoned it. It being shorter than any previous Marvel Netflix series, this didn’t take that long. (No filler episodes.) Above cut judgment: overall plot meh, worth watching for the character interaction, with my particular highlights being Jessica & Matt, Luke & Jessica, Luke & Danny (I haven’t watched Iron Fist, nor do I intend to watch it now, but the scenes with Luke were the occasions when Danny shook off blandness and became an entertaining character), and all four spending an entire episode stuck in a Chinese Restaurant. Also Matt & Spoilery character, Alexandra (Sigourney Weaver’s character) & Madame Gao, Alexandra & Spoilery character.
Mind you: Sigourney Weaver’s character was the type of role which would be dreadfully boring if anyone else was playing it, but she brings all her expertise and charisma, so her scenes are compelling. Purely in writing terms, though, the character doesn’t do much, and thus my personal ranking of Marvel villains remains undisturbed.
While I suspect the writers may have intended to make the Hand a thematic counterpart to the Defenders – the bickering immortal supervillain group as a foil – it doesn’t work out that way, not least because other than Alexandra and Madame Gao, the rest of the Hand never achieve personalities beyond basic Evil Overlord. It didn’t help that their goal (prolonging their immortality at the cost of leveling New York) remained abstract because while we heard about the Earthquake damage early on, we didn’t see anyone suffering from it. The two individual victims who brought Luke and Jessica into the fight respectively – the architect and the young kid lured into clean-up duty – did work for me, and it was fitting for the characters that Jessica was brought out of her post Kilgrave depression by despite her best intentions unable to turn her back on the suffering of the two desperate individuals who brought this case to her AND the anonymous threat getting her back up, as well as Luke being drawn in by wanting to protect a young man from getting exploited into criminality. But that just underlined the discrepancy re: the Hand as an overall antagonists remaining abstract to Our Heroes, with one notable exception. (No, not Danny, despite all the fuss of them wanting to kidnap him to open the proverbial door for them, and him being sworn to fight them.)
Now I didn’t like the Hand in that role in s2 of Daredevil already, and that was one of several reasons why I never watched Iron Fist to begin with. But as furious as I was with Matt during much of s2 due to how he behaved towards his friends there, the Matt/Elektra relationship did work for me, not least because the show never tried to sell it as anything but gloriously messed up, not remotely healthy. Well, The Defenders does that as well, with the added bonus of Matt not being a jerk to his friends anymore, making new ones and having gotten the hang of balancing saving innocents with his passion for Elektra. And I’ve found out that the trope of “hero encounters beloved formerly dead person now working as brainwashed (or ARE THEY) assassin for evil organization, stubbornly refuses to give up on assassin” works for me much stronger when it’s not Steve and Bucky, despite Winter Soldier being arguably the best crafted of the MCU movies and The Defenders being not nearly among the top tv series. Seriously, though: what “But I knew him” is for Steve/Bucky shippers, that’s Elektra returning to Matt’s empty flat and curling up in his bed to me. The twist that Matt succeeding in triggering Elektra’s memories doesn’t result in her going light side but in her deciding to take out her Evil Overlady and going into immortality business for herself fits the character and the way Stick raised her. (BTW, Elektra killing both Stick and Alexandra, i.e. the two people who raised and shaped her into their perfect assassination tool first as Elektra and then as the resurrected Black Sky, and doing so after she regained her memories, not before, was eminently fitting. If you call your character “Elektra”, there’d better be parentcide happening at some point.) Matt deciding he’d rather die with Elektra than live without her is the kind of thing that if handled wrongly could feel self indulgent and/or foolish, but since this series made sure he’s doing the hero thing of savingthe world New York first and then stays with her in the crumbling building, it pushed my Heathcliff-and-Cathy-button: when the text is on the same page with yours truly about that those two being a mess, but zomg, they are so in a mythic manner. Incidentally, I admit they had me there. In theory, I was aware it was unlikely Matt Murdock would get killed off in a series not his own; in practice, I thought, well, maybe the diminishing returns of DD2 and Iron First and their financial difficulties made Netflix decide to cancel the show, and thus did buy into the death until we got to the tag scene. (likeadeuce told me once Matt’s mother in the comics turns out to not be dead and a nun; I presume that’s what the show will do next, and since they are far too many daddy issues in the MCU, including Matt’s, I welcome the arrival of Mommy issues. Bring on the nun!)
On a healthier relationship note, I was very glad to see Luke and Jessica reacquainting themselves and, in the finale, finally talking about what happened between them in Jessica Jones, with Luke forgiving Jessica this time for real and without Kilgrave’s imput. That the writers chose to end this scene with Jessica telling Luke they could have coffee some time and Luke saying neither yes nor no tells me that Luke/Jessica might be the MCU’s end game, too, after all, given what “coffee” means in the tv verse. Even that aside, though, their interaction throughout was pleasingly mature on both sides – they came across as people who evidently have a history but also care about each other and have their priorities straight. Mind you, a Jessica who doesn’t have issues is hardly Jessica Jones, and she did have them, but those were other issues.
Everyone of the four main characters brought some of their supporting cast with them; Jessica had Trish and Malcolm, and since Our Heroes decided to prevent their loved ones being taken hostage by the bad guys by putting them under police protection with Misty, it meant Trish had a great scene with Karen near the end, co-investigating. Overall, though, I’d have loved to get more interaction between the supporting cast when they were all in the same spot at the same time, and less fight scenes, but that’s the basic problem of a four-superheroes-versus-supervillain-group premise. Karen and Foggy reconciling with Matt during this show, btw, should have tipped me off that something major was going to happen to Matt at the end, because otherwise wouldn’t they have left it for a third Daredevil season?
Meanwhile, as briefly mentioned above, Jessica and Matt striking up a friendly rapport was a delight to see. He shows up as her lawyer when she’s found with the inevitable dead body (btw, if Daredevil Season 2 had Matt failing as a lawyer and prioritizing his Daredevil side above else, The Defenders starts out with him being effective as a lawyer again and doesn’t let him get into costume until episode 5, though he has fight scenes before that; we mostly see him in civilian clothing throughout the series, though). Her mellowing from prickly distrust to friendly teasing over the rest of the episode in question was great, as was his opening up to her somewhat, and if not for his supposed death at the end, I could so envision them hanging out with each other regularly from this point onwards; they establish that kind of relationship in this series, whereas I can’t envision Jessica seeking out Danny for socializing or vice versa any time soon. (Luke and Danny , otoh: as I said, this is when Danny becomes an entertaining character. Be it the early antagonism or the banter, it all works for me – the big stuff, like Luke calling Danny on his privilege, and the small details, like Danny pushing the last dumpling (or whatever that dish was) to Luke, and of course Luke indulging Danny in his urge to tell the Dragon story. So yes, definitely friendship material, which will relieve the comics fans who, as even I who have never read an Iron Fist comic in my life know via osmosis, slash them.)
Oh, speaking of details: Jessica becomes the first person to FINALLY notice Matt’s apartment is far too large for someone who is supposedly a poor lawyer living in New York City. He explains by pointing out the neon lights at night. Well, better than no explanation at all, I suppose.
Let’s see, what else: Colleen whom I didn’t know before any more than I did Danny starts out in strictly supporting mode but gets her own arc in the series, confronting and finally defeating her old teacher (one of the Hand, though sadly without more than general evil overlord/mentor characterization, see above). Whereas Claire, unfortunately, is stuck in the role of Luke’s supportive girlfriend in this series, and interacts with neither Matt nor Jessica, which I was a bit frustrated by. (Otoh to be fair she interacts with Misty and Colleen a lot, and good on the Bechdel front, that, but I still wanted those other scenes as well.)
Lastly: all members of the Hand are dead, though I suppose it’s possible Madame Gao made it out alive if Matt did, but though she was my favourite of the villains, I hope not, because I really want this storyline to be over with. No more mystical ninjas, PLEASE. Let them all stay buried in that hole in the ground.
(Jessica’s wry one liners regarding the ridiculousness of anything connected to the Hand was good lamp shading, btw.)
In conclusion: not a triumph, not a failure; serves the four main characters and some of the supporting cast well.
Mind you: Sigourney Weaver’s character was the type of role which would be dreadfully boring if anyone else was playing it, but she brings all her expertise and charisma, so her scenes are compelling. Purely in writing terms, though, the character doesn’t do much, and thus my personal ranking of Marvel villains remains undisturbed.
While I suspect the writers may have intended to make the Hand a thematic counterpart to the Defenders – the bickering immortal supervillain group as a foil – it doesn’t work out that way, not least because other than Alexandra and Madame Gao, the rest of the Hand never achieve personalities beyond basic Evil Overlord. It didn’t help that their goal (prolonging their immortality at the cost of leveling New York) remained abstract because while we heard about the Earthquake damage early on, we didn’t see anyone suffering from it. The two individual victims who brought Luke and Jessica into the fight respectively – the architect and the young kid lured into clean-up duty – did work for me, and it was fitting for the characters that Jessica was brought out of her post Kilgrave depression by despite her best intentions unable to turn her back on the suffering of the two desperate individuals who brought this case to her AND the anonymous threat getting her back up, as well as Luke being drawn in by wanting to protect a young man from getting exploited into criminality. But that just underlined the discrepancy re: the Hand as an overall antagonists remaining abstract to Our Heroes, with one notable exception. (No, not Danny, despite all the fuss of them wanting to kidnap him to open the proverbial door for them, and him being sworn to fight them.)
Now I didn’t like the Hand in that role in s2 of Daredevil already, and that was one of several reasons why I never watched Iron Fist to begin with. But as furious as I was with Matt during much of s2 due to how he behaved towards his friends there, the Matt/Elektra relationship did work for me, not least because the show never tried to sell it as anything but gloriously messed up, not remotely healthy. Well, The Defenders does that as well, with the added bonus of Matt not being a jerk to his friends anymore, making new ones and having gotten the hang of balancing saving innocents with his passion for Elektra. And I’ve found out that the trope of “hero encounters beloved formerly dead person now working as brainwashed (or ARE THEY) assassin for evil organization, stubbornly refuses to give up on assassin” works for me much stronger when it’s not Steve and Bucky, despite Winter Soldier being arguably the best crafted of the MCU movies and The Defenders being not nearly among the top tv series. Seriously, though: what “But I knew him” is for Steve/Bucky shippers, that’s Elektra returning to Matt’s empty flat and curling up in his bed to me. The twist that Matt succeeding in triggering Elektra’s memories doesn’t result in her going light side but in her deciding to take out her Evil Overlady and going into immortality business for herself fits the character and the way Stick raised her. (BTW, Elektra killing both Stick and Alexandra, i.e. the two people who raised and shaped her into their perfect assassination tool first as Elektra and then as the resurrected Black Sky, and doing so after she regained her memories, not before, was eminently fitting. If you call your character “Elektra”, there’d better be parentcide happening at some point.) Matt deciding he’d rather die with Elektra than live without her is the kind of thing that if handled wrongly could feel self indulgent and/or foolish, but since this series made sure he’s doing the hero thing of saving
likeadeuce told me once Matt’s mother in the comics turns out to not be dead and a nun; I presume that’s what the show will do next, and since they are far too many daddy issues in the MCU, including Matt’s, I welcome the arrival of Mommy issues. Bring on the nun!) On a healthier relationship note, I was very glad to see Luke and Jessica reacquainting themselves and, in the finale, finally talking about what happened between them in Jessica Jones, with Luke forgiving Jessica this time for real and without Kilgrave’s imput. That the writers chose to end this scene with Jessica telling Luke they could have coffee some time and Luke saying neither yes nor no tells me that Luke/Jessica might be the MCU’s end game, too, after all, given what “coffee” means in the tv verse. Even that aside, though, their interaction throughout was pleasingly mature on both sides – they came across as people who evidently have a history but also care about each other and have their priorities straight. Mind you, a Jessica who doesn’t have issues is hardly Jessica Jones, and she did have them, but those were other issues.
Everyone of the four main characters brought some of their supporting cast with them; Jessica had Trish and Malcolm, and since Our Heroes decided to prevent their loved ones being taken hostage by the bad guys by putting them under police protection with Misty, it meant Trish had a great scene with Karen near the end, co-investigating. Overall, though, I’d have loved to get more interaction between the supporting cast when they were all in the same spot at the same time, and less fight scenes, but that’s the basic problem of a four-superheroes-versus-supervillain-group premise. Karen and Foggy reconciling with Matt during this show, btw, should have tipped me off that something major was going to happen to Matt at the end, because otherwise wouldn’t they have left it for a third Daredevil season?
Meanwhile, as briefly mentioned above, Jessica and Matt striking up a friendly rapport was a delight to see. He shows up as her lawyer when she’s found with the inevitable dead body (btw, if Daredevil Season 2 had Matt failing as a lawyer and prioritizing his Daredevil side above else, The Defenders starts out with him being effective as a lawyer again and doesn’t let him get into costume until episode 5, though he has fight scenes before that; we mostly see him in civilian clothing throughout the series, though). Her mellowing from prickly distrust to friendly teasing over the rest of the episode in question was great, as was his opening up to her somewhat, and if not for his supposed death at the end, I could so envision them hanging out with each other regularly from this point onwards; they establish that kind of relationship in this series, whereas I can’t envision Jessica seeking out Danny for socializing or vice versa any time soon. (Luke and Danny , otoh: as I said, this is when Danny becomes an entertaining character. Be it the early antagonism or the banter, it all works for me – the big stuff, like Luke calling Danny on his privilege, and the small details, like Danny pushing the last dumpling (or whatever that dish was) to Luke, and of course Luke indulging Danny in his urge to tell the Dragon story. So yes, definitely friendship material, which will relieve the comics fans who, as even I who have never read an Iron Fist comic in my life know via osmosis, slash them.)
Oh, speaking of details: Jessica becomes the first person to FINALLY notice Matt’s apartment is far too large for someone who is supposedly a poor lawyer living in New York City. He explains by pointing out the neon lights at night. Well, better than no explanation at all, I suppose.
Let’s see, what else: Colleen whom I didn’t know before any more than I did Danny starts out in strictly supporting mode but gets her own arc in the series, confronting and finally defeating her old teacher (one of the Hand, though sadly without more than general evil overlord/mentor characterization, see above). Whereas Claire, unfortunately, is stuck in the role of Luke’s supportive girlfriend in this series, and interacts with neither Matt nor Jessica, which I was a bit frustrated by. (Otoh to be fair she interacts with Misty and Colleen a lot, and good on the Bechdel front, that, but I still wanted those other scenes as well.)
Lastly: all members of the Hand are dead, though I suppose it’s possible Madame Gao made it out alive if Matt did, but though she was my favourite of the villains, I hope not, because I really want this storyline to be over with. No more mystical ninjas, PLEASE. Let them all stay buried in that hole in the ground.
(Jessica’s wry one liners regarding the ridiculousness of anything connected to the Hand was good lamp shading, btw.)
In conclusion: not a triumph, not a failure; serves the four main characters and some of the supporting cast well.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 10:13 am (UTC)Like you said, Danny still suffers from being too bland for words (I wonder why, though?) and Luke's pointing out his privilege was the best scene for me. But on the whole I thought they did well with blending the styles of the four solo series, and I hope the show does well enough for Netflix to continue making at least JJ and LC.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 12:36 pm (UTC)Like I said, Alexandra as written could have easily come across as bland and boring as well. But via Sigourney Weaver, you believe this is truly a woman who has lived for centuries and doesn't let her appreciation for music interfere with considering most of humanity expendable if it furthers her aims, and you wonder whether she sees her lost daughter in Elektra, or a potential lover, or simply a guarantee for her continuing power that is only beholden to her and not the other fingers of the Hand.
no subject
Date: 2017-10-01 12:40 am (UTC)Yep. The way she touched Elektra - that possessiveness - could easily be read as any combination of the three. I'd read messed-up Alexandra/Elektra for sure.
Totally agreed on Elektra curling up in Matt's bed, btw. The actress is phenomenal throughout and I loved that sequence. Matt/Elektra is so great - although I was a bit... obviously there's no time for it but Matt's Catholicism is such a big part of him and I wish we could've dealt with him committing a mortal sin.
Yes to everything you said on Danny being briefly bearable when with Luke, the fantastic Luke/Jessica interactions, and their very IC ways of being brought in. I yearn for more Trish/Karen - I'd been hoping Trish wanting to do more investigative journalism meant a team-up so I was very happy with their scene!
no subject
Date: 2017-10-01 09:29 am (UTC)By now, I've seen some Alexandra/Elektra, but not much. Again: Yuletide!
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 01:10 pm (UTC)DD S3, IF S2, JJ S2, and LC S2 have all been green-lit by Netflix. And DD S3 is filming now and should finish soon, with an airdate for early 2018. (DD was renewed for a third season in 2016.)
Also, there's a spin-off series that focuses on Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, Clair, and possibly Electra entitled Daughters of the Dragon in the works. (Hence the reason we had so much focus on those four characters, particularly Wing, who was the best thing in Iron Fist.)
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 02:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 03:28 pm (UTC)Oh, DD explains how he got the loft apt to Karen in episode 1 of S1. (I decided to re-watch.) Also, I think the difficulty was in the writing...the series lost a great deal with the departures of Drew Goddard and Stephen McKnight.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 04:03 pm (UTC)*high pitched screaming*
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 10:37 pm (UTC)https://www.themarysue.com/defenders-trailer-sdcc-2017/
Apparently this was revealed at Comic Con, during the Defender's Panel.
It's not clear who all will be cast, but definitely Colleen Wing and Misty Knight (which were in my humble opinion the best things in Luke Cage and Iron Fist) along with Clair. They've set it up already with the Defenders...actually that was probably the whole point of that team up - to set that up.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 01:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 01:50 pm (UTC)I posted a link above, I think? Apparently it was mentioned in a throw-away sort of way at the Defenders Panel at Comic Con. The commentator at The Mary Sue also mentions it in a sort of - off-handed way. "Oh, by the way, they are doing the Daughters of the Dragon, yippee" and in other news. LOL!
I think JJS2 may air prior to DDS3. Personally, I think they should do a little cross-over between those two, but I doubt it.
The Punisher is also popping up -- but I don't have a lot of interest in The Punisher.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 02:07 pm (UTC)Punisher's going to have 13 eps and is airing in maybe October or November this year. Daredevil S3 and JJ S2 will probably drop in 2018: Den of Geek just said that right now Punisher is in post-production, JJ S2 is filming and DD S3 will probably start filming in late October. So based on that I'd expect to see JJ S2 in March and DD S3 in summer 2018, although Netflix might decide to air DD S3 first anyway. I'd be surprised if they put JJ and LC's sophomore seasons in front of DD S3. MCUExchange has some pretty good info on the shooting and airing schedules: https://mcuexchange.com/daredevil-season-3-october-filming/
no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 02:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 05:05 pm (UTC)Thanks for the info. Apparently The Mary Sue got it wrong? (shrugs)
I had the exact opposite response to DDS2 - for me the best things were DD and Electra. I really didn't like the Punisher arc all that much, or the actor, and the violence/gore was a bit more than I needed, so I'll probably skip that one. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 01:53 pm (UTC)As good as Sigourney Weaver was, I felt like she was too much of a muchness with Kingpin - the fancy clothes, the eating fancy meals alone, etc. - so having Madame Gao be the top Hand would have worked better for me.
I too thought it was odd that neither Jessica nor Matt ever really got to interact with Claire, though I did like her moment at the end with Foggy. Poor Foggy.
Everyone not taking Danny seriously was the best way to make him palatable; he was just so dumb! I haven't watched Iron Fist and I have no plans to, but oy. Too bad they can't recast.
no subject
Date: 2017-08-20 02:13 pm (UTC)Alexandra/Elektra: not yet, I just checked. Otoh there's a lot of Foggy mourning and some good Jessica/Matt BROTP.
Recast: well, they could! There's always the traditional soap opera option of wherein he survives a plane crash and post operation emerges as another actor. Or just gets recast. If it was good enough for Rhodey...
no subject
Date: 2017-08-21 01:53 pm (UTC)At the start I was watching, resentfully, pretty much for Luke and Jess, but I forgot how Charlie Cox actually makes me like Matt and it was great seeing all the secondary characters get together too. For me the breakouts were Elodie Yung and Jessica Henwick -- I didn't see IF, and I thought Yung's character was so poorly written in DD S2. But she really made Elektra sing, and it was great seeing someone FINALLY take down Stick. Henwick managed to do so much with so little I was really impressed.
Mme Gao is clearly the MVP, as well as the villain with the most personality (apart from Alexandra). It would be awesome if she were some version of the Crane Mother, although that seems unlikely.