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selenak: (Sternennacht - Lefaym)
[personal profile] selenak
Talking to [personal profile] shadowkat reminded me again of the Chequers Affair, by which I don’t mean Theresa May’s Brexit plans but Margaret Thatcher summoning various historians and politicians in March 1990 to brood on the German national character and the dangers reunification would pose. The Powell memorandum from said day put it thusly:

We started by talking about the Germans themselves and their characteristics (…): their insensitivity to the feelings of others, their obsession with themselves, a strong inclination to self-pity, and a longing to be liked. Some even less flattering attributes were also mentioned as an abiding part of the German national character: in alphabetical order, angst, aggressiveness, assertiveness, bullying, egotism, inferiority complex, sentimentality. Two further aspects of the German character were cited as reasons for concern about the future. First, a capacity for excess, to overdo things, to kick over the traces. Second, a tendency to overestimate their own strengths and capabilities.

*looks at the current state of Britain after two years of Brexit madness*
Boy, was someone projecting or what?

More seriously, I don’t believe in „national character“. (Of either nation.) I do think, however, such portraits are always instructive regarding the painters, in this case, a bunch of influential Tories reflecting a widely shared mind set (and not just among Tories). And I suspect most, though not all, of the characteristics named are shared by two thirds of politicians in any given nation.

On the other hand, I also believe, current messy state of the world not withstanding, that we (as in we, human beings) can do better. Today (December 7th) is also the anniversary of what I still think is one of the most powerful gestures any politician ever made: Willy Brandt’s kneefall at the Warsaw memorial in 1970. Since I suspect many younger readers aren’t aware of what happened anymore, here it is, in an English language report:



I can’t think of a speech that could/would have conveyed what Brandt did with a gesture here. And it needed to be done – not as an ending, mind, but as something driving acknowledgment and repentance forward. The historical constellation is also important – if it had been any other post war Chancellor but Brandt, the meaning would not have been the same. He, who had been a resistance fighter and exile during the Third Reich, was without personal guilt. He wasn’t trying to wash away the blood from his own hands by assuming a general responsibility. He was really kneeling as the embodiment of the nation here, in a way heads of government rarely are when it comes to a nation’s responsibilities, as opposed to celebrations.

Brandt was anything but perfect. But, looking around the world right now, I wish we had more politicians in government who are capable of what he was, at his best.

Date: 2018-12-07 02:20 pm (UTC)
linaerys: (Default)
From: [personal profile] linaerys
This is very interesting. I'm not sure I believe in national character--especially not as something immutable, or common to all residents, but nations certainly have cultures, which can become very hard to change. I'm reading a book about corruption right now, and no country has a "character" that makes corruption more likely or more inevitable, but a culture of corruption can be entrenched in any group of people and can be extremely resistant to change--and I think this is true for other kinds of cultures as well, like a violent or vengeful culture. And hopefully for more positive types of cultures too.

Date: 2018-12-07 03:52 pm (UTC)
ratcreature: RatCreature is thinking: hmm...? (hmm...?)
From: [personal profile] ratcreature
IMO it really depends on what you mean with "national character". I think ascribing vague feelings to nation states is nonsense. But I also think if you have a set of collective experiences that will inform how people view things, especially if a collective interpretation is relatively uncontested, and gets dragged out again and again to justify things in the context of national policy debates.

And then you get opinion distributions that notably differ in a statistically relevant way if you compare sets from nation states. And from those opinions you can draw a picture of a "national character".

Like say people explaining German monetary policy with traumatic hyperinflation experiences. Obviously hyperinflations aren't particularly special (like iirc they pretty much started to occur once governments discovered fiat currency in Ancient China, and other European countries had them too in the 20th century, like Hungary or Greece), but the Weimar one did leave a deep impression and German politics refers to it a a scare scenario. That hasn't happened in all nation states where a hyperinflation happened and some never had one, and either way it's not the sole explanation for how people relate to their currency, but it's fairly obvious that for example within the Eurozone not just pragmatic different interests among the members but also emotional responses to monetary policy cause trouble. And the latter could be shorthanded as "national character".

Date: 2018-12-07 10:42 pm (UTC)
rheasilvia: (Green tea)
From: [personal profile] rheasilvia
Hear, hear. Well said... it is a very dangerous time, and there are far too many politicians of a very different kind in power right now.

Date: 2018-12-08 02:33 am (UTC)
shadowkat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowkat
We started by talking about the Germans themselves and their characteristics (…): their insensitivity to the feelings of others, their obsession with themselves, a strong inclination to self-pity, and a longing to be liked. Some even less flattering attributes were also mentioned as an abiding part of the German national character: in alphabetical order, angst, aggressiveness, assertiveness, bullying, egotism, inferiority complex, sentimentality. Two further aspects of the German character were cited as reasons for concern about the future. First, a capacity for excess, to overdo things, to kick over the traces. Second, a tendency to overestimate their own strengths and capabilities.

Hmmm...when I read this, I thought...this actually is a good description of a lot of people, specifically the British and Americans.

I like your response to it quite a bit.

More seriously, I don’t believe in „national character“. (Of either nation.) I do think, however, such portraits are always instructive regarding the painters, in this case, a bunch of influential Tories reflecting a widely shared mind set (and not just among Tories). And I suspect most, though not all, of the characteristics named are shared by two thirds of politicians in any given nation.

I agree. I have issues with nationalism. I think it divides people more than brings together, and if taken too far (see the years between WWI and WWII), can lead to isolationism and fascism.

If we had more politicians who took responsibility for their actions and were a bit more humble and less interested in bolstering their own egos, we'd be better off.

I am dealing with three of those at the moment, my State's Governor, our Mayor, and Individual 1 aka the Doofus (who is by far the worst offender) all have issues in that department -- to varying degrees. And all are battling corruption investigations on various levels.

I can't help but wonder though if our society is partly to blame for this?

I'm hopeful though -- I look at Germany and I think, well, Germany survived far worse. We all have.

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