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selenak: (Londo)
[personal profile] selenak


Yep, still in love with this two parter as much as ever. I'll never forget first watching it, in Los Angeles, where I had a scholarship. Until that time I had watched B5 in German on German tv, then I came to the US, and caught up with the show in English, and "War without End" were the third and fourth B5 episode I first watched in English, full stop. Also I was blown away by the content.

It would be a remarkable pair of episodes even if JMS didn't have to pull a rabbit out of his hat to adjust the already established Babylon Squared stuff to the change of leading man, and make it feel entirely natural. (Which it does. Well, almost. Older Sinclair's "I tried to warn them" line doesn't quite fit anymore, as the only one he tried to warn was Garibaldi, but honestly, I don't care.) Michael O'Hare gives what is to me his best performance on the show, serene and moving at the same time, and I'm struck this time around again by how much you can read into his stillness at the very beginning, after Sinclair has read that message. And both his words about and to Garibaldi in both parts made me think in a way, they're Frodo and Sam if Frodo hadn't taken Sam along and/or Sam hadn't managed to track him down at the end of Fellowship.

(Poor Garibaldi, I say not for the first time. Lise not withstanding, Sinclair does have claims of being the love his life.)

Of course, the first time I watched this, the big Sinclair = Valen reveal was only of secondary iimportance to me, though I found it stunning enough. Naturally, this two parter was to me The One Where We See Londo's Death Vision Play Out, the one where we learn the ghastliness of Londo's fate before that, and the one which completely recontextualizes said vision in a way neither I nor, I dare say, any other unspoiled viewer could anticipate. I.e. instead of killing each other in a final fit of hate, Londo and G'Kar by the time of their deaths are friends, Londo asks G'Kar to kill him to save the Centauri (!), and is counter attack is not something he himself controls. From this point onwards, the big question of the show was to me "how do we get from lethal feuding to "my old friend"?", never mind whether or not Sheridan goes to Z'ha'dum. Okay, I also wanted to know what happened to Centauri Prime, and how far or little Londo was exaggarating/being unfair/completely faking it for the Keeper's benefit when he blamed Sheridan for it, but really, Londo/G'Kar and their mutual arc forever, and that feeling became definite when I first watched this two parter and hasn't left since.

(My flinching upon the sight of the Keeper hasn't changed, either, upon nth repetition. Mind control is vile, body control of that type isn't any better, and I remember how urgently younger me hoped Londo would SOMEHOW manage to avoid that fate.)

One of the benefits of repeated viewing is that one can pay attention to the details which weren't the original focus of one's viewing. So this time, I smiled when thinking of how JMS avoided the usual (then and now) build up to "first kiss" and "first "I love you" for a leading couple and making this a very special episode by letting it happen in the one and only big time travel story of the show, so that for Delenn, "I love you" is old news and the kiss is one after a life time, it's only the first time for Sheridan and they both have so much else going on right then that they're not lingering at the experience.

Back to Sinclair: because Sinclair is actually Valen in the flesh, not a reincarnation but the one and only Valen, I thought until I started this particular rewatch of the show that JMS managed to keep it ambigious as to whether or not the Minbari are right in their belief about human and Minbari souls, or whether the device recognizing Sinclair simply reacted to, well, Sinclair. Then, last year, when rewatching s1 I was reminded the soul hunter episode actually features souls going after said hunter when no one else is present, and the s2 opener has Lennier claim that after Sinclair, other human pilots were kidnapped, tested and also showed Minbari souls, which makes it look like the narrative supports Minbari faith as being factually true. The glowy orbs in "Soul Hunter" are actually more of a problem here than Lennier's claim, because Lennier is delivering exposition to humans, and I bet the Grey Council kept the part where Sinclair was identified not just as having a Minbari soul but the soul of Valen extra secret, wanting absolutely no one to know.

Aaaanyway. I also noticed on this rewatch that the Gethsemane episode sneakily includes some pretty specific Valen info when Brother Edward is interviewing Delenn and Lennier about their faith - "a Minbari not born of Minbari", "came out of nowhere a thousand years ago", "established the Grey Council" etc. Making Sinclair essentially the Minbari Messiah these days could have come across as problematic, but I think not only does the time travel factor negate it - i.e. Sinclair is removed frm the present almost as soon as he finds out, and he ends up in a time where being Valen hasn't (yet) any meaning to his new environment, he has to earn that meaning - but the fact that Sinclair, who had a traumatic war experience and had to learn archieving peace for himself, who has seen both Minbari and humans at their best and worst, is not someone likely to feel himself entitled to lord over anyone. And he'll be alone (at least at first), cut of from anyone he's known and loved. (Unless you take the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" as canon, in which case he'll flind Catherine Sakai again who earlier had a time shaped accident.) In a new body, without the help Delenn had in her equivalent situation (though with Delenn's example proving to him it can be done). Sinclair closing that time loop is sacrifice as much as it is anything else, and Delenn clearly takes it as such.

(On a more frivolous note: as fans pointed out back in the day, every time a Minbari says "In Valen's name!", they actually say "In Sinclair's name", which doesn't quite have the same ring to it....)

Trivia: the first time I watched this, I had no idea who "Lucy and Ethel" were and thus Sinclair's reference completely went beyond me. ("I love Lucy" had not been shown in German tv.) I did know who "Lewis and Clark" were, though I first heard it as "Lois and Clark" before realising he couldn't have meant them... could he?

Delenn's hybrid status is of course why in "Babylon Squared", we hear her voice but don't see her yet in the final scene, since her eventual transformation is one of the s1 mysteries.

Marcus volunteering for the one way ticket to the past gig is neither the first nor the last proof of his tendency to jump on any potential self sacrifice assignment there is, but it's interesting that he does it now when he's started to develop feelings for Ivanova (of whom he would in such a scenario be separated for good).

Londo actually has just a short screen time in this two parter, but Peter Jurasik makes every second count, especially since we get basically three versions of Old Londo The Emperor: the one with the Keeper awake, angry with Sheridan and condemning him to death, drunk Londo revealing the truth to Sheridan and Delenn, asking them to help the Centauri and saving them, and then Londo with G'Kar. I'm differentiating between the last two because I think that while Londo is sincere with Sheridan and Delenn, he's also still playing a role, just a different one, since he really wants them to come through for Centauri Prime, whereas with G'Kar, he's just stripped of everything but the real deal. Note that Londo, if he wants to be, is a good liar, and like all good liars does employ parts of the truth, which is why I think the anger at Sheridan in his first scene isn't all faked (though not for the reasons he gives, more about this in later seasons).

Draal and the Great Machine being able to engineer time travel (through sector 14) was a potentially tricky element to introduce to the saga, which is, I guess, why JMS at the end of the two parter establishes that the Quadrant 15 gap is really really closed, and Our Heroes won't be able to do it again. If the reboot version of the show also uses time travel this one time, I wonder whether it will happen at the end of the saga, as was orginally planned for Sinclair?

The other episodes

Date: 2022-06-05 02:25 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
Darth RL is rearing its head today and I won't be able to post on this until tomorrow properly, but I just want to say
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I HAVE MANY CAPITAL LETTER THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS EPISODE THAT IT IS KILLING ME THAT I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GET INTO RIGHT NOW, mostly very incoherent along the lines of SINCLAIR and SHERIDAN and LONDO and G'KAR and... But I will be back!

Date: 2022-06-05 05:52 am (UTC)
beatrice_otter: Delenn--We are Starstuff (Starstuff)
From: [personal profile] beatrice_otter
It is so fun to watch a newby watch the show for the first time. Because that is exactly the way it felt on first watch, and it still packs a punch on rewatching but it's not quite the same.

Date: 2022-06-06 04:34 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
Since you thought that was fun, here is a rather more detailed comment containing EVEN MORE FLAILS :D

Sinclair: *pulls back hood*
Me: WHAAAAT IT'S SINCLAIR???????
Me: ...now wait a moment, I've been told Sinclair comes back once and that is going to HAVE to be the episode where Babylon Squared is dealt with because someone would have WARNED me if JMS didn't close that loop --
Ivanova: They're killing us!
Me: OMG IT'S TIME-WARPED IVANOVA THIS IS DEFINITELY ALL B2 RELATED
Me: WHAT IS GOING ON
Me: SINCLAIR CAME BACK TO B5
Me: Sinclair and Sheridan are super cute together, awwww...
Ivanova: We assumed B4 had been taken into the future.
Me: WAIT! I ASSUMED THIS TOO! WAIT WHAT
Sheridan: Are you saying we stole B4?
Me: ARE YOU SAYING THEY STOLE B4??
Future!Londo: *appears on screen*
Me: LONDO????
Delenn: Our son --
Me: Oh, of course! [Not spoiled, but as I mentioned before I had definitely gotten through osmosis of these posts the idea that Delenn has other motives, and ~child of destiny/two worlds/etc.~ is definitely a trope I grew up on, so this was probably the least surprising plot twist. I mean, still surprised! But not AS surprised.]
Me: IS THIS ALL REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN??
Me: LONDO??!!
Londo: Old friend...
Me: Old friend? Vir? That's not Vir? Who is that? G'KAR THAT'S G'KAR OMG
Me: THAT'S G'KAR STRANGLING LONDO LIKE IN THE VISION
Me: OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Me: THERE'S VIR LOOKING AT THE THONE!! OMG HE'S GOING TO BE EMPEROR NOW LIKE IN THE PROPHECY
Me: THE LETTER WAS FROM SINCLAIR??
Me: Is... is Sinclair Valen?
Me: THE ONE IS DELENN?? [I was legit confused about this -- I thought that the One had been older!Sinclair, but younger!Sinclair didn't fit being "The One." In retrospect I'm not sure why I believed this??]
Me: A MINBARI NOT BORN OF MINBARI
Me: He IS VALEN
Me: THE THINGIE THAT TURNS MINBARI INTO HUMANS
Me: AND APPARENTLY VICE VERSA
Me: ALL THAT STUFF IN PARLIAMENT OF DREAMS STARTS TO MAKE SENSE
Me: JMS HAS BEEN PLANNING ALL THIS SINCE S1?????????????????
Me: HE IS LEGIT CRAZY

-Also, poor Zathras. No one listens to him! (You'd think they would!)

-I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT NOW I KNOW HOW LONDO'S DEATH SCENE HAPPENED and yet I... have more questions now??

-[personal profile] ase explained to me that Sinclair tried to change history with the "watch your back," but failed... I completely missed that.

Questions (I think these are just to be answered if they're legit dangling threads that don't show up later, obviously don't answer if they are plot hooks):
-I'm still not sure I understand all the time twists and the things that won't happen vs. the things that will... so I may be off base here... but This was the moment Garibaldi was born for, and he didn't get to have it??
-I don't understand when you can change the future and when you can't... they changed the future from the one where Ivanova was calling, but they can't change prophecies. I think. So maybe they can change part of this happening? Surely Centauri taken over by Shadows can't be the endgame?? But the fact of Londo's death can't be changed...

(My flinching upon the sight of the Keeper hasn't changed, either, upon nth repetition. Mind control is vile, body control of that type isn't any better, and I remember how urgently younger me hoped Londo would SOMEHOW manage to avoid that fate.)

Same! And there was something about the way the camera snapped to that eye opening that was just really horrific.

Making Sinclair essentially the Minbari Messiah these days could have come across as problematic

Hm - didn't strike me that way, but because the Minbari have always seemed like they knew a lot more and were a lot more advanced than humans. Although I guess part of the reason they're more advanced (maybe all of the reason??) is because of Sinclair... but he wouldn't have been able to go back if it weren't for Minbari... agh, time loops make everything hard, lol.

In a new body, without the help Delenn had in her equivalent situation (though with Delenn's example proving to him it can be done).

Ohhhh... crap. That hadn't occurred to me, that he wouldn't have had the help Delenn had.

I did know who "Lewis and Clark" were, though I first heard it as "Lois and Clark" before realising he couldn't have meant them... could he?

I TOTALLY heard this as Lois and Clark and was like "...I didn't realize this show had quite so many slashy vibes??"

Delenn's hybrid status is of course why in "Babylon Squared", we hear her voice but don't see her yet in the final scene, since her eventual transformation is one of the s1 mysteries.

OH! I didn't realize that until you said it.
Edited Date: 2022-06-06 06:04 am (UTC)

Date: 2022-06-06 06:35 am (UTC)
beatrice_otter: Sinclair--Not to Yield (Not to yield)
From: [personal profile] beatrice_otter
Imagine how much more freaked out you'd be if you were not used to episodic television having plot arcs that lasted more than two episodes. AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE'S TYING IN A BILLION THINGS FROM THE LAST THREE SEASONS, HOLY SHIT.

As for time travel and the things that are going to happen vs. the things that don't, I think it mostly comes down to what path you choose. Imagine it like this: time is a stream. It's going to stay in mostly the same path, keep flowing on, and mostly things will just keep flowing. However! You can put a big boulder in it to divert it and send it off into another course.

Whether or not B4 goes back to be the Minbari forward base 1k years ago is just such a boulder. If they don't do it, the timeline is completely different and B5 is destroyed. If they do it, the timeline goes off on a path they want, a path where they can win. And once it's on that path, it's going to keep mostly going on that path. Until and unless another major boulder is dropped in the stream. What this means for the future, well, you'll just have to wait and find out.

As for whether Garibaldi was denied the thing he was born for ... he's a fundamentally nihilistic person who (in that timeline) is given a chance to go out in a blaze of glory saving his friends as the hero of the story. Of course he's going to find that satisfying. No more need to worry, no more need to scheme and analyze everything, life is all of a sudden very simple. Stand his ground and go down in a haze of weapons fire. And he's in the middle of an adrenaline rush, so the feeling is magnified. That doesn't mean it's what he's actually born for, even if that's what he feels like in the moment. He's the kind of guy who would make the sacrifice play if it was absolutely necessary ... but he's also the kind of guy who, given any other options, would take them.

The difference between the mysteries of B5 and the mysteries of any given JJ Abrams show/movie and the vast majority of shows with long-running mysteries, is that a) they mostly solve the mysteries in ways that are satisfying, and b) the new mysteries come by being solved by the old ones, so it's not just a case of new shit being piled on top of old shit until you're so frustrated you don't care any longer.

Also, I can now rec my absolute favorite B5 fic:
Transformation (1160 words) by deborah_judge
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Babylon 5
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Characters: Jeffrey Sinclair
Summary:

While in his chrysalis, Sinclair learns what his transfomation will cost him. Originally posted in 2004.

Date: 2022-06-07 04:50 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
Yeah, wow! I mean, it's got a very 90's vibe, and in that time period I was watching... X-Files. Which of course was part of that whole movement towards arcs (and doesn't at all predate B5), but it became clearer and clearer they didn't know what the heck they were doing. So I guess subconsciously, even having had people telling me there was a clear arc, I wasn't expecting... this.

b) the new mysteries come by being solved by the old ones, so it's not just a case of new shit being piled on top of old shit until you're so frustrated you don't care any longer.

haha, yeah, this was so me and X-Files! (Which I bailed out of... sixth season? Something like that?)

I do like that explanation of time and of Garibaldi, thank you!

And that was a great fic -- heh, I came out of that episode thinking, "It would be really cool to read a fic about what Sinclair was thinking inside that chrysalis," and lo.

Date: 2022-06-07 05:03 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
"Sinclair is the One who was, Sheridan is the One who will be, and Delenn is the one One who is"

You know, I really didn't quite get that, this is why I was so confused! Thanks. I guess I'm yet another one who wasn't listening to Zathras enough ;)

Incidently, what is your guess as to the nature of Delenn's flash forward?

(and thanks for the reminder, there was a LOT going on in those eps) - I have no idea!!

It might be worth listing the number of prophecies and visions we've had so far:

AHHHHHH
okay here I go with my personal speculations

Centauri seer in s1: B5 will perish in fire. We're led to believe this will happen courtesy of the space pirates at first, but clearly that attempt is foiled, yet the prophetic image of B5 exploding remains.

Well, this is clearly going to happen. I think. Or guess, anyway. (Partially because I have a strong bent towards "prophecies always happen unless the prophet tells you it might not.")

Londo's dream visions: he dies as Emperor, being strangled by G'Kar while he strangles G'Kar. (We've now seen a time where this comes true, but not in the way current day Londo expects it to.)

So this is clearly going to happen too, but maybe not in the exact way we were shown there? I hope?

Elric the Technomage's answer to Londo's "...or will I pay for the rest of my life for one mistake?" (he's referring to having tried to use the technomages for political gain): "Yes, you will", but not for the technomage stunt.

Hmm, we have kind of seen that now, right? Londo paying by being saddled with the Keeper, presumably for the mistake of accepting Morden's help??

Lady Morella's prophecy: both Londo and Vir will become Emperor, Vir only after Londo's death. Londo will have three chances at redemption: 1) saving the eye which does not see, 2.) not killing the one already dead, 3.) Accepting his worst fear.

Well, she didn't actually say "Vir after Londo's death," just strongly implied one of them would have to die for the next to be emperor (and of course both Londo and I figured Londo would be first, since who would make Vir Emperor first? ...if JMS does this as a second plot twist I will laugh SO HARD) - could G'Kar be his worst fear? His last chance, that he took?

Kosh's prophecy re: Sheridan: "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die."

Older Delenn's warning to Sheridan: Do not go to Z'ha'dum! On the other hand, they have a son, and she clearly expects him to be alive when finding him on Centauri Prime.


I got nothing here. Except that maybe Sheridan shouldn't go to Z'ha'dum! (Sheridan is totally going to Z'ha'dum, isn't he. Like, I'd bet (small amounts of) money that he will go to Z'ha'dum first chance he gets, because that is the sort of guy Sheridan is. (You might have been able to get Sinclair to stay away unless he thought there was a chance he could sacrifice himself for others, in which case he'd be impossible to stop too.) But, then, how is he still alive?)

Older Londo's accusation to Sheridan in his first scene: Sheridan wins his war against the Shadows, but did not attend to the fallout, and the devastated state of Centauri Prime is the result.

Now, I didn't take this as complete truth -- maybe it is, but it's also Londo's POV, and at best we know he has considerable experience shading the truth (e.g., rewriting Vir's reports). But also he's also putting on a show for the Keeper, as we later learn, soooo... I'd be surprised if that were the whole story.

Date: 2022-06-05 05:55 am (UTC)
beatrice_otter: Delenn--We are Starstuff (Starstuff)
From: [personal profile] beatrice_otter
I do take To Dream In The City Of Sorrows as canon, the only one of the books that is canon for me.

This episode--wow. So many threads come together in unexpected and brilliant ways, and so many new threads are created.

Date: 2022-06-05 06:26 am (UTC)
beatrice_otter: Sinclair--Not to Yield (Not to yield)
From: [personal profile] beatrice_otter
There is a youtuber doing reaction vids as she watches B5 for the first time, and she got to WWE a couple of months ago. She did Part 2 as two vids. In the first one she yells and swears at the screen a lot. In the second one, her eyes just keep getting bigger and bigger and she keeps whimpering as she watches. It's really entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_eptObKWA8

WILDLY OFF-TOPIC

Date: 2022-06-06 02:29 am (UTC)
sovay: (Rotwang)
From: [personal profile] sovay
In case you had not seen that Mr Wilder & Me is to be filmed.

Date: 2022-06-06 06:52 pm (UTC)
nolivingman: (Root)
From: [personal profile] nolivingman
Those two episodes never get old. I remember how I posted in shock and awe after watching them the first time.

Spoilers (new viewers please skip)

Date: 2022-06-07 10:56 pm (UTC)
redfiona99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] redfiona99
>>From this point onwards, the big question of the show was to me "how do we get from lethal feuding to "my old friend"?", <<

That's the thing that always amazed me, the show takes the viewer from "this is an act of hate and perpetual revenge" through to "this is an act of love" without losing us on the way. Housemate P was introducing housemate O to B5, and that first proper rewatch (for me) was incredible because you wanted to stop the characters doing the things they did that lead to inevitable ends.

>>and I remember how urgently younger me hoped Londo would SOMEHOW manage to avoid that fate.)<< It's always the Regent I feel worst for, because everyone else is an Emperor, he's just a harmless old man who's trying to keep the ship afloat.

Re: Minbari messiah - I think that we've seen Delenn go the other way (or partly the other way) helps as well. It's sealing the circle.

Marcus is a martyr looking for a cause. I think it's pure luck that his cause ended up being the Rangers and therefore good, because I think he'd bring the same, literally to-the-death, determination to any cause. (I think it also makes spoilery thing inevitable).

Re: Spoilers (new viewers please skip)

Date: 2022-06-09 09:00 pm (UTC)
redfiona99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] redfiona99
I think I want to believe that Marcus wouldn't have but I am worried that he might.

Date: 2022-08-10 01:22 pm (UTC)
watervole: (Default)
From: [personal profile] watervole
"Making Sinclair essentially the Minbari Messiah these days could have come across as problematic, but I think not only does the time travel factor negate it - i.e. Sinclair is removed from the present almost as soon as he finds out, and he ends up in a time where being Valen hasn't (yet) any meaning to his new environment, he has to earn that meaning - but the fact that Sinclair, who had a traumatic war experience and had to learn archieving peace for himself, who has seen both Minbari and humans at their best and worst, is not someone likely to feel himself entitled to lord over anyone"

I really like your thoughts here. Especially about Sinclair having had to learn how to achieve peace for himself after war. This makes him really suited to aid the Minbari both during the final part of the war, and afterwards to learn peace again.

Was Sinclair originally planned to become Valen at the end of the series? I didn't know that.

(Catching up after long break from sciatica pain and sorting out Ukrainian stuff.)

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