January Meme: Differences between British and German Culture

[selenak]

This is somewhat tricky to answer, not least because: what do we qualify as „British“? English and Scottish and Welsh and Cornish and Northern Irish? English only? Doesn‘t, say, Liverpool, or York have a somewhat different cultural background than London? (And isn’t Liverpool blessedly free of The Sun and other Murdoch productions?) Similarly, even leaving aside the biggie (i.e. East German* and West German differences, which after thirty years of reunification do not only still exist but in some ways seem to get larger), we don‘t have that Federal structure for nothing. I always protest that statements like „Bavaria is the Texas of Germany“ don‘t really fit, but there are certainly differences between Bavaria and, say, Nordrhein-Westfalen, or between Hamburg and Württemberg, and so forth.

*A relatively minor example: one of the ceremonies when a German chancellor leaves office is the so called „Zapfenstreich“. One of the things that happen is that the Chancellor can ask the army orchestra to play three pieces of music for them. Angela Merkel‘s choices were 1) Großer Gott, wir loben dich, 2) „Für mich soll‘s rote Rosen regnen“ as sung by Hildegard Knef, and 3) „Du hast den Farbfilm vergessen“ as sung by Nina Hagen. The last song sent the West German part of Germany googling, but it had been a very popular hit in the GDR. (If you‘re curious: Nina Hagen version, and as played for Angela Merkel by the Bundeswehr.

And then there‘s the next question: what do we mean by „culture“ - culture as in literature, music, painting and sculpture? Pop culture? Folklore? Food culture? Daily traditions?

(One of my professors died recently - at 99, so not unexpected - , forgive the wrangling for precision and meaning, it‘s what he taught me.)

All this being said, I‘ll reach for some generalities:

1. Tea. Before my first visit to GB at the age of 13, I had never drunk it with milk. Decades later, I still try to avoid this. I do love tea, in many variations, but milk doesn‘t belong into it in my German-inprinted taste. I‘m pretty sure Catherine of Braganza when introducing the habit of tea consumption to the British Isles didn‘t do so with milk addendum, so this must be a GB original contribution.
2. Christmas. Famously, the Brits owe the Christmas trees to our boy Albert, the Coburg prince who married Queen Victoria. Presumably it‘s also his fault that the British Royal Family alone in all of GB celebrates the giving of gifts on Christmas Eve, December 24th, not on Christmas Day, December 25th. It‘s a German tradition, and we still do it this way.
3. Federalism. This is mostly the heritage of the HRE (Holy Roman Empire), the way the Emperors after the 13th century kept losing power and the individual princes within the HRE kept gaining it, while both France and England got centralised and unified instead. This has the result that for the longest time, Germany (geographically speaking) did not have a capital (the Emperors kept changing their residences until the Habsburgs monopolised the position, but Vienna was never the capital of the HRE in that sense), a city comparable to London or Paris, but what it did have were numerous cities that became cultural and economic centres, and a strong sense of regional identity tied to what used to be those principalities. And I think when Blair was PM the parliaments in Scotland and Wales got some more responsibilities and power (or did I osmose this wrongly), but even so, that‘s a relatively recent development, whereas Federalism in Germany is deeply entrenched. Mind you, the downside of having cultural and economic centres in every region is that there are some heads of Federal States who still confuse themselves with Princes (any German readers know whom I am thinking of), but there it is. Anyway: love it or hate it, I think it‘s undisputable London is unique for what it is in England as well as Great Britain, and in the British cultural consciousness. There is no comparable German city which evokes the same feelings in Germany. Berlin is a relative new arrival on the scene, speaking in centuries and millennia - it really started to become a must in terms of visiting only in the 19th century, and post reunification in the 20th, there was some serious debate on whether or not the capital should remain in Bonn where it had been for some decades in West Germany, with the late Wolfgang Schäuble being instrumental on campaigning for Berlin. Today, Berlin is of course a big deal, not just politically speaking, but it‘s still not „THE“ German city, the way London keeps getting confused with England (or GB) in pop cultural depictions. (Au contraire; due to decades of having the US Army stationed in Bavaria, it tends to be confused with Germany as a whole in American media. Meanwhile, the fact that the Brits were stationed in the Rhineland (I think?) doesn‘t appear to have made a similar impact.)
4. Puns, black humor and self deprecating humor. This for the longest time was seen as something the Brits are exceptionally and uniquely good at, and which we much admire them for. Contrary to slander, Germany did and does produce wits, satirists and even comedies, but not nearly to the same degree. I will say that the existence of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Moog and the effect they’ve had has had the effect of seeing British humor in a somewhat more sour light on some folk over here.
5. Dresscode for theatres. Mind you, this might be out of date, but I remember being shocked the first time I went on a theatre marathon in London and everyone (save yours truly) was wearing jeans. (Given sometimes you buy the tickets only hours before, it makes sense.) Back in the 80s and 1990s at least, i.e. when I was young and impressionable, you dressed up in evening wear for a visit to the theatre.
6. School uniforms. As in, while I‘m not sure about private schools, no - I hesitate to use the term „public“ because it means something different in a British context - no school paid by the government and which you visit for free has them in Germany. Now this might be a strictly post 1945 thing for all I know, but the whole „uniform“ part of „school uniform“ gets seriously side-eyed here. Or used to when I was a youngling; Harry Potter might have made a difference. We still don‘t have them in our public schools, though.

The Other Days

Comments

[contrary_cal]

I‘m pretty sure Catherine of Braganza when introducing the habit of tea consumption to the British Isles didn‘t do so with milk addendum, so this must be a GB original contribution.

I believe - though I may well be remembering this wrongly - that it actually came to GB from India, where milk was used to cut the bitterness of low-quality tea leaves by people who couldn't afford the high-quality ones!

[vivdunstan]

Normally Britain = England + Scotland + Wales. So yes it includes Cornish (England). Not Northern Irish. UK = Britain + Northern Ireland, though many people in Northern Ireland feel a British cultural identity. The Channel Islands are an oddity ;)

Scottish devolution was established in 1997. There hadn't been a Scottish parliament since the early 1700s. We have a lovely new parliament building - moved into after a delay, while the building was designed and built, and the Scottish parliament handles a huge section of the practical issues affecting the Scottish people. Ditto for the Welsh parliament, which was established at the same time. There are tensions between the devolved parliaments and Westminster, with many powers reserved to the latter. Which sometimes even leads to cases in court, as the devolved parliaments try to push through legislation that the UK government opposes. But yes, we have strong devolution in these two countries in the UK. Northern Ireland has also had its own devolved parliament since the late 1990s, though it's had a somewhat troubled time in recent years, with prolonged suspensions. But I think it's currently up and running again. Devolution in England isn't yet a thing.

[reverancepavane]

Puns tend to require a confused language which is subject to misinterpretation as to meaning. English is one such as it not only borrows words from other languages but follows them down dark alleys and mugs them. However in this regard Mandarin and Cantonese are really some of the most effective languages for puns, since so many words have meanings that change by context or even just tonal mispronunciation. It is pretty much, as far as I can tell, the national sense of humour (in as far as you can reduce a population to a favourite form of humour).

Certainly makes watching the old HK films in a cinema filled with native speakers a more interesting experience that is certainly not captured by the subtitles. {i'm really really bad at any language that requires tonal qualities for comprehension.]

[mildred_of_midgard]

Northern Irish?

I can answer this part: Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, but not part of Great Britain, and thus not included under "British". UK = Great Britain plus Northern Ireland.

That said, because of the complicated history of the island of Ireland, there are a lot of individuals in Northern Ireland who feel more British than the Brits. Much like there are a lot of people in the US who are more Irish than the Irish, and St. Patrick's Day is a bigger deal (I'm told) in Boston (where I can confirm it's a big deal) than in Dublin. It's an effect of exiles having to fight for an identity that the people back home take for granted, which leads to the identity carrying far more emotional weight.

I still recommend "Say Nothing", both book and tv show, if you haven't read/watched. ;)

ETA: I see somebody beat me to this, including the equation! I'm going to leave my comment up anyway, since we covered slightly different material. The equation commonality is funny, though.

[vivdunstan]

The equation says it so succinctly :)

[greenwoodside]

Ages ago when I was still teaching English in Germany, one of the students tried to persuade me of the cultural ties between Friesland and the UK because of the drinking of tea with milk.

I think the latter may be falling out of favour in the UK in its traditional form. I know my parents always made tea in a teapot, poured it into cups, and then poured revolting amounts of milk in after. (Seriously, there was almost more milk than tea!)

But I'm more of a coffee drinker, and so are most of the people I encounter. Though I don't know – these things go in cycles. The next generations may decide to flood instagram with photos of tea parties and 'shall I be mother?' or elegantly coiffed young things accessorising mugs of strong, sweet builder's tea.

Re: theatre. When I was going with my parents in the nineties/start of the millennium, I did put on smart clothes and it seemed that most other people did too. (Context: this was the provinces not London). I know I also stopped bothering at some point, but I'm not sure when that was. One factor could have been the economic crash; another might have been exposure to the Globe with its casualness, pantomimic acting style to cope with the conditions, and its groundlings. Once Globed, always Globed.

[cahn]

Yes, in the 90's/00's it would have been weird for me to see someone not dressed up to go to the theater/symphony, and now I am much more likely to see people in more casual clothes (though many people do still get dressed up, and I like to wear at least slacks). I think a lot of that, at least locally, has been trying to convince people that the theater and symphony are still relevant and interesting to all kinds of people and not elitist in nature. (That is to say -- I don't think it's all that elitist myself to try to wear nicer clothes to performances, but I can see how it might contribute to that perception.)

[greenwoodside]

I can see how that might work, though I haven't heard of any specific initiatives here to encourage dressing down.

I remember when I was a broke student in clothes that didn't fit, I went as a guest of my mother to the opera at Covent Garden and the ranks of the expensively dressed white upper middle classes with home county cut glass accents would probably have made 97% of the country feel like a visitor to an alien, disapproving planet.

But that was Covent Garden. Opera North and Opra Cymru, operating on smaller budgets (miniscule in the case of the latter) are probably easier going. Well, Opra Cymru definitely was when I saw their Cosi Fan Tutte last year. Plus open air productions in places like Regent's Park must do a lot to bring people in. It's hard for anyone to look elitist if they're sweating in t-shirts and shorts on a plastic chair during a London heatwave.

I guess back in the days of smartening up, it was still contextual -- whether it was a matinee or evening performance, indoors or outdoors, 'serious' theatre or a musical.

[vaznetti]

Before my first visit to GB at the age of 13, I had never drunk it with milk. Decades later, I still try to avoid this. I do love tea, in many variations, but milk doesn‘t belong into it in my German-inprinted taste. I‘m pretty sure Catherine of Braganza when introducing the habit of tea consumption to the British Isles didn‘t do so with milk addendum, so this must be a GB original contribution.

I think British tea-drinking is an aquired taste; I grew up drinking tea Russian-style, or with lemon and honey, so it came as a shock. I still think a lot of British tea that British people love is not very good quality but that might be because I am approaching it from the wrong perspective and with the wrong goals.

[cahn]

Hee, I also grew up in a non-milk-tea culture, but I actually do like milk in tea. Though the difference is that I didn't grow up drinking tea in my iced-tea-saturated culture, because I didn't drink caffeinated beverages, so my taste buds weren't imprinted. (As an adult I do drink decaffeinated tea, which was not usually an option growing up.)

[selenak]

:) I drink a lot of tea. Especially in the winter, i.e. now, I guzzle it in litres. Not the same kind to wake up in the morning than I do in the afternoon or evening, of course - thankfully, Roibos tea exists for the later times of the day. But you live in a place where it‘s never properly cold, which might also make a difference.

[ratcreature]

I also encountered tea with milk on my first visit to GB (Scotand in my case) and I was skeptical but it turned out a revelation, and I've been adding milk to my black tea regularly ever since. (Not all black teas, occasionally I drink some with more subtle taste profiles that I want without milk, but like the standard breakfast kind of tea I add milk.)

[watervole]

Many thanks for this - especially the bit about puns!

When I was young, we always dressed up for the theatre.

I always though it was a bit like wearing your best for church on Sunday, sort of showing respect for an occasion. But as an adult with far more social history under my belt, I now assume that, even if my parents probably didn't think of it as such, it was effectively a way of demonstrating status. It certainly was in other eras...

The purpose of school uniforms in state schools is to make it much harder for people to judge the wealth of the parents. To try and make it easier for children from poorer backgrounds blend in, make friends, etc.

It also keeps costs down if kids wear the same clothes every day.

[selenak]

I‘m glad you enjoyed my replies. :) Re: the theatre, I can see that, and honestly, stopped dressing up in London for the theatre decades ago. But here in Germany I still can‘t bring myself going to the theatre in my casual clothes. (Always excepting open air theatre in any time of the year.)

[vilakins]

As soon as I read the header, I thought. "Milk in tea!" It's horrible and I have to be quick to say that I only take it black if I'm offered it at someone's house, because that's common here too and people assume everyone takes milk. Mind you, I had to be fast with "Tidak manis!" in Indonesia because everyone there has their (admittedly black) tea disgustingly sweet, and they'll otherwise whack 2-3 tsp of sugar in.

Anyway, according to various sources, putting milk in first protected cheap or delicate china from heat, but why didn't they use a little cold water instead? In old books, people offer milk/cream or lemon, but no longer, as far as I know.

I do have milk in coffee.

Re schools, I envied the Germans when I lived there for having shorter school hours without a ridiculous emphasis on sport and PE. We've inherited that too - it's much more admired to be good at sport than academics. I used to be the class clown to make up for having top marks which was a negative.

[selenak]

Sports! That‘s a difference I would more have associated between American and German culture, but that‘s because I actually was in a school exchange program with our USian partner town as a teen, whereas I never saw the inside of a British school in my life (outside of tv and films, that is). And I haven‘t yet had the chance to visit Australia. But yes. I can‘t recall hero worship for students who were good in sports.

Also: hail, fellow black tea without milk lover! (Though for the morning, green tea is my favourite. Equally without milk, of course.)

[jesuswasbatman]

The UK has more time in school spent playing sport, but school sport is still taken much less seriously than in the US (as in, in the UK no adults care about how the local school team is doing unless their kid is in it).

[lokifan]

I will say that the existence of Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Moog and the effect they’ve had has had the effect of seeing British humor in a somewhat more sour light on some folk over here.

EXTREMELY FAIR. Though I'm flattered to hear it's been admired overall :)

I tend to think uniforms are a good thing overall because class prejudice is so intense here, and for keeping costs down, especially rn when child poverty is so shamefully high. But it's got serious downsides too ofc.