So is it lack of respect? Some inconclusive meta thoughts about a variety of pairings

[selenak]

We all have our squicks and kinks, and sometimes they just don't coincide. One fan's "OMG the Hawwwwt!" is another's "ew, ew, no way, scrub my brain". I tried to figure out whether my own squicks fall into particular categories, and at first came up with a blank; for example, when I thought I had something by "father figure/protegé 'ships just squick me" because of my feelings re Giles/Buffy (or indeed Giles/any of the Scoobies) or Londo/Vir , I realized I had no such objections towards, say, Sydney/Sloane (though I could point out here that this never could or should be portrayed as something nice or functional, even if you manage your way around the post-Danny-she-hates-his-guts factor and the thing where he does see her as a kind of daughter, in addition to whatever else he's feeling towards her). So, no general father-or-mentor figure/protegé objection.

Moving over from sort of incest to real incest, it's not that I have general objections there, either, it really depends on the pairing. (Justin/Iris 4EVAHHH! Also, they're canon. Not in a theirloveissocanon way, they're actually text canon on Carnivale.) Some popular incest pairings aren't anything I could see (say, Eowyn/Eomer, or Simon/River, especially in the later case, because in the state River is in, Simon would sooner castrate himself, imo), but it's not like their existence gets a visceral reaction out of me.

But there are pairings that distinctly evoke something beyond "huh? not my coup of tea, I guess". Something like visceral dislike. (Disclaimer: if the following examples should be your pairing of choice, don't feel insulted. I'm sure some of my pairings might be equally objectionable to you.) And I think I finally figured out a common denominator, when talking with andrastewhite via email.

It's the lack of respect factor. Pairings going from best friends to lovers? I can see that. Pairings that go from mortal enemies to sex against the wall? I can see that, too. (Actually, I did see that, in BTVS canon.) Whether or not I like it oftne depends on the characters in question and on the skill of the fanfic writer. However, it also depends on a) whether the characters in question have an interesting relationship in canon already (can be friendly, can be hostile, but must be interesting and there and present before the sex factor enters, and b) whether there is some basic equality and respect between the characters in question.

Londo and G'Kar go from your basic Narn/Centauri feud to hate founded on personal wrongdoings to friendship to whatever you want to call it in season 5, but they always, at every stage, respect each other. ("If I can figure it out, so can he," G'Kar says to Mariel in season 2's Soul Mates.) (Same, btw, applies for Londo and Timov, though we only see her in this episode, which is why I like Londo's wife so much.) Xavier and Magneto, in their movieverse incarnations and what bits of the comicverse I've read, always respect each other, through friendship and adversity. Jack Bristow and Irina Derevko, and Jack Bristow and Arvin Sloane respect each other, don't underestimate each other, and are equals in terms of intelligence and capability. You get the picture. I dig equality and respect.

And that probably explains that when I casually surf the lists and see people talking about Xander/Spike or Jack/Vaughn, I get squicked. Because even brushing all canon attachments to other people aside... there is the basic lack of equality and respect. The Xander I saw on BTVS doesn't just dislike Spike, he demonstrates contempt towards him pretty much consistently throughout the show. Conversely, I don't recall a scene where Spike said something complimentary about Xander, or expressed respect for him in another way. And while Jack sort of apologizes to Vaughn for his first instinctive contemptuous reaction to Vaughn's planned proposal, the only times he ever bothers with talking to the man throughout four season either have to do with helping Sydney or with his own Irina issues. He shows no interest in Vaughn as a person beyond that, nor sympathy. Vaughn for his part goes from resenting Jack (in early season 1) to respecting him, by all means, but again, it comes across as being about the "Sydney's father whom I would like to approve of me" factor. Just compare it with Marshall's fanboying Jack Bristow as Jack.

Of course, no sooner had I decided that at last I had some name for my visceral dislike, and was being logical and thorough about it, that my inconvenient brain pointed out to me that after watching RotS, I read not one but two Anakin/Palpatine fics (with no actual sex happening, but the emotional thing was certainly there) and was not squicked in the least. And there is certainly no equality there. Curse all Sith lords. Because that leaves me in the dark again about why I feel like retching whenever I see someone mentioning Jack/Vaughn...

Comments

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's something to do with the fact that, with bad guys such as Sith Lords, you don't go in expecting respect and equality from them.

Doctor/Companion (and Time Lord/Human pairing in general) stories squick me, because of the enormous power difference, and the fact that the Doctor is most emphatically not someone I'd see behaving in such a way as to abuse this power with his companions. The exceptions among such pairings might be Romana, who's at least a Time Lady of equal status (not as experienced, but no less powerful), the Master (not a companion, as such, but they are peers as well as enemies), and say, Cameca, because she was an elder and he was younger then.

The Ninth Doctor stuff that's been trying to take away this power difference (in canon, even) by damaging the Doctor emotionally squicks me even more.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's something to do with the fact that, with bad guys such as Sith Lords, you don't go in expecting respect and equality from them.

Good point. And though I only saw a few Dr. Who stories of the previous incarnations (one with Romana, btw!), I agree with you about the principle of the thing. They simply would not be in a position to say no to him if they didn't want to get stranded on the next planet in time and space.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Indeed. "Don't argue with the designated driver," Rose said in the new series, but she never learned to pilot the Tardis.

Cameca is a human from the First Doctor serial "The Aztecs" with whom the Doctor canonically flirted, but she never left her home.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

Well, no one's trying to argue that Anakin/Palpatine is a good thing. I think it's easier to get squicked when authors are writing happy fluff about relationships you think have horrible problems, but everyone pretty much agrees that Anakin/Palpatine has the problem that Palpatine is Evil with a capital E. (The Internet being what it is, I'm sure someone will eventually write Anakin/Palpatine happy fluff, but I don't think it's happened yet.)

I prefer my enemy pairings with mutual respect, too (I was going to say "my enemyslash," because the dynamic I like is more often a slashy one, but there are some het equivalents, starting with "The Lion in Winter.") Pairings where that respect isn't there in canon don't necessarily squick me, but do I find them hard to buy -- that's why Snape/Black really doesn't do it for me in the Potterverse, for instance.

On the other hand, I'm fine with pairings that aren't really pairings of equals, where the power in the relationship is unequal from the beginning and both of them know that. Sometimes I'm willing to buy that the relationship would work and sometimes I'm not, depending on how it's handled, but it doesn't usually squick me unless A) it's to a point where one person has so much power over the other that there's no way to tell whether the relationship is truly consensual and B) the author doesn't seem to notice that or deal with it in any way.

You can get into different kinds of power there.

[alara-r.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I'm fine with pairings that aren't really pairings of equals, where the power in the relationship is unequal from the beginning and both of them know that.

Here's the important thing, I think. One party can have damn near absolute power, and it's okay as long as the *emotional* power is equalized. I mean, I read and write a pairing where one's a human and one's essentially a god (Picard/Q), but Picard is *emotionally* much more controlled and mature than Q. Emotionally, they are equals, even though one is much, much more powerful than the other. Whereas mentor/student relationships depend on a one-down paradigm -- there is an emotional hierarchy in a mentor/student relationship no matter how much raw power the student has (Buffy can kick the crap out of Giles, but that doesn't make Giles/Buffy equal.)

Re: You can get into different kinds of power there.

[leviathanmuse.livejournal.com]

I would agree with that to a point. I think my problem is not so much an imbalance of power as much as the fact that lots of authors don't handle it as a dysfunction. If there's that much of an imbalance, I expect to see the problems, not fluffy bunny sex or emotional bonding. I expect that things are not going to be happy unless a huge change is made to equalize the balance of power (at least emotionally).

Incest is a squick for me usually if it's between parent or parental figure and a child or child substitute. Siblings are not quite the same problem for me, although I have a bit more problem with brother/sister ones simply because of the fact that the sister could become pregnant.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Lion in Winter was what imprinted me big time on this particular dynamic, I suspect.

Pairings where that respect isn't there in canon don't necessarily squick me, but do I find them hard to buy -- that's why Snape/Black really doesn't do it for me in the Potterverse, for instance.

Agreed. Never mind that they can't stand each other, they really don't respect each other, either. (Of course, the only two persons Snape demonstrates respects towards are Dumbledore and McGonnagal, and I can't really see that, either.*g*)

An acknowledged (by the fanfic writer) power imbalace: yes, that could be different, though then again you have the pleasure slave fetish as a sub genre, which isn't my thing, either.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

I find it quite hard to pinpoint what squicks me.
The worst squick for me is mpreg which I avoid like the plague.

Incest would be a likely squick, but there are some fandoms where I don't mind at all whereas I mind terribly in others. It seems to squick me if the people involved grew up together, but when they only learn about their familiar relationship very late in life I don't mind. Examples: Weasley incest turns me off big time, Star Wars incest like Vader/Luke or Luke/Leia can work me.

For me a certain equality of the partners is important. There doesn't have to be mutual respect in the beginning of the story, but by the time the protagonists get together they've better learned to respect one another.

As for Anakin/Palpatine: Before Anakin's accident, they can be considered equals in a way. Palpatine is, of course, the Sith Lord and a clever manipulator. But while in the beginning Anakin is very innocent in this relationship ('Of course I trust you.') he's actually stronger than the Chancellor when it comes to his force potential. Shortly after Anakin turns to the Dark Side, he even considers overthrowing Palpatine. ('I'm more powerful than he is.')
For me this pairing is definitely a unhealthy relationship, but nevertheless it's fascinating because of the complex power issues.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Mpreg: Oh, agreed. Though Farscape had a hilarious canon mpreg which actually was a satire of the whole thing, but that's hardly what the fanfic authors have in mind.*g*

Anakin/Palpatine: as the other commentators had said, maybe the reson why that works for me and doesn't squick me is because it's not presented as a good thing, and the powerplay and manipulation is an acknowledged part of the dynamic.

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

There are very few "types" of pairings that invariably turn me off, mostly b/c I reject the idea of these "types" as being strong enough to be a true guide to go by. Categorizing something as primarily mentor/student is one thing, but to say that Sydney/Sloane is therefore like Buffy/Giles is to deny that Buffy and Sydney (and Giles and Sloane) are separate and distinct characters, with elements that make them individuals rather than archetypes. We all identify with certain archetypes to a degree, but any individual and/or relationship who fits that archetype may or may not connect to us personally.

For me, for instance, I tend to like mentor/student relationships if and only if the student is old enough and independent enough to create a transition in the relationship; I find the shift of power from mentor to a more equal approach a fascinating dynamic. But I cannot enjoy Sydney/Sloane as anything but an extremely twisted dynamic, mostly because I think Sloane's relationship to Sydney is fundamentally unhealthy on a lot of levels. (He may be improving in this area, but as he does so, the idea of a relationship becomes more remote, not less.) Whereas I was happily able to read (and write) Giles/Buffy, because I felt that Giles' love for her, romantic or not, was very much based in real respect, warmth and understanding.

I don't feel like retching when somebody mentions Jack/Vaughn, but I have yet to read a single story that sells it to me or even makes more than a half-baked attempt to do so. A lot of the fic out there falls into ClicheWorld -- "they have to pretend they're lovers for a mission!" -- and such. Now, far be it from me to disdain these cliches; if they're just the transportation the writer takes to get to the story, well, so be it. I have read beautiful stories based on the trashiest premises. But if there's nothing else there -- if the writer doesn't call on something deep in the personalities of the two character involved that then really resonates -- then it's just the archetypes (Stoic Man and Younger Man) humping each other, with no sense of the individual at all. Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring.

I've been reading and writing fic too long to be satisfied with archetypes. I need people.

[kangeiko]

But I cannot enjoy Sydney/Sloane as anything but an extremely twisted dynamic, mostly because I think Sloane's relationship to Sydney is fundamentally unhealthy on a lot of levels. (He may be improving in this area, but as he does so, the idea of a relationship becomes more remote, not less.)

See, to my mind, Sydney/Sloane is the ltimate UST. If you want it twisted, you can take Sloane's view of it. If you want Sydney angst, you can take her side. I can buy her having an inappropriate crush on her charismatic boss when she was a wee one - it's what charismatic bosses are there for. And, post-Danny, it means that there are endless sources of angst, because the more she becomes aware of Sloane's (questionable) interest in her, the more she feels all the horror what she might have done had she been aware of this earlier... and of what that would have meant to her life and to the lives of her family. So, yeah, I buy Sydney/Sloane, if it's Syd-centric and mostly UST. With the happy ending and 2.4 kids? Not so much.

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

In order to believe that, I'd have to believe that Sydney DID have a crush on Sloane. Although it is certainly not impossible that she did, we haven't had clue one on the show to suggest that this was the case. And, as you say, there's really only one way that the crush even plays out -- consummated or not, it ends up with regret, angst and hate. Ergo, there's basically two potential Sydney/Sloane stories, and they both require me to take a huge flying leap of faith and/or the author to do a whole lot of work setting it up. In any other case, we're back to archetypes humping each other; I find this invariably yawnworthy.

[kangeiko]

In order to believe that, I'd have to believe that Sydney DID have a crush on Sloane.

I confess to being puzzled by this. I mean, Sydney/Sloane isn't one of my top faves, but I give it the benefit of the doubt because non-canon pairings require that. Wouldn't your above statement mean that all non-canon pairings are automatically invalidated?

Although it is certainly not impossible that she did, we haven't had clue one on the show to suggest that this was the case.

I'd argue that this would be because Sloane becomes a Bad Guy that Sydney hates from pretty much the 14th minute of the show, or his 3rd minute of screen time. We don't get to see much of their interaction before he has Danny killed, and all of Sydney's introspection later is coloured by her later hatred. So, certainly in the Sloane/Sydney instance, I'd argue that we don't actually know how young Syd felt, all of eighteen and meeting her secret agent boss for the first time. So, although I'm not personally a Syd/Sloane 'shipper, I can see where people are coming from on it.

And, as you say, there's really only one way that the crush even plays out -- consummated or not, it ends up with regret, angst and hate. Ergo, there's basically two potential Sydney/Sloane stories, and they both require me to take a huge flying leap of faith and/or the author to do a whole lot of work setting it up.

Hmmm. But - isn't that the point of fic? Pick any greek tragedy - no way it could have had a happy ending given the turn of events. That doesn't invalidate it as a story; on the contrary, I'd argue that it is precisely one of the methods / approaches that worked for the format. It's dependent on the writer being a good writer, sure - but isn't every fic?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply Sloane/Sydney is like Buffy/Giles. If anything, Buffy/Giles strikes me - and that's why I have such problems with this particular pairing - as comparable to someone writing a season 3 AU where instead of finding out about Nadia, our characters find out Sloane is Sydney's biological father, and she and Jack start dating. Giles isn't Buffy's biological father, but - with the caveat that this is how it came across to me, personally, and of course there's the eye of the beholder factor - I always thought the show was pretty clear on him being her emotional father. (Similarly, I completely believed Jack when he told Sydney that even if he had turned out not her biological father, she'd still be his daughter.) And that's why I can't imagine an erotic component added to the love and respect between the two without getting squicked.

Whereas the dynamic between Sydney and Sloane is twisted, I absolutely agree. (Which is probably part of what makes it interesting to me.) And there is no possible way in which an actual sexual relationship could be good for Sydney. (Or for Sloane, for that matter, both because of the road they've set him on and even before that because it would wreak havoc with the other relationships in his life.) However, stories exploring the dynamic (as it is), and acknowledging that there is this weird sexual vibe in addition to the parental one? A different matter.

I've been reading and writing fic too long to be satisfied with archetypes. I need people.

Very good point, and probably why your Harry/Draco is only story I ever found interesting. Admittedly I didn't read many of the others, but they all struck me as going for the archetypes; you could have called the characters any other names from any other fandom, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

I certainly see that Buffy/Giles could hit a parental squick; OTOH, I don't think canon demands that father/daughter must be the premise of their relationship. The analogy drawn to Sydney dating a Jack who isn't her father doesn't quite work; in that case, they fully believed in the relationship, interacted throughout Sydney's babyhood and childhood, etc. Whereas Giles entered Buffy's life when she was 16, and although many aspects of his relationship with her were fatherly, others (the advice about his love life, the general flavor of their interaction in later seasons) were not. I wrote a grand total of one Buffy/Giles story, and it was pretty much entirely about the explicit rejection of the father/daughter dynamic -- why they didn't believe in it, but kept clinging to the idea in an effort to not admit what was beginning to happen between them.

In other words, I think it's doable. Not invariably going to work for everybody, but doable.

Sydney/Sloane -- I just don't know. What you describe could exist; OTOH, Sloane has explicitly said that, in the time before Danny's murder, Sydney looked at Sloane "as you would your own father," suggesting that the quasi-parental objections could be as strong there as in Buffy/Giles. If Sloane was her replacement paternal figure for seven years, as they've suggested in canon -- shouldn't it raise the same questions as Buffy/Giles? We didn't see that relationship, so it's more fluid for our imaginations, but it's as valid an argument as any other.

And, fundamentally -- I will not say that I'm not interested in unhealthy-relationship fic, because certainly at times I am. But I'm not AS interested in it as I am in fic about relationships that are either healthy or (best of all) could go either way. Jack and Irina are thoroughly warped on so many levels, but they wouldn't intrigue me if you didn't have the sense that, in the middle of all that betrayal and distrust and hurt, there is some fundamental strength and love at the core of it. Something survived what they've done to each other, and all their machinations now still have them trying to grasp at the goodness inside the bad. Whereas Sydney and Sloane is dysfunction, nothing but dysfunction, and while this can interest me for short periods of time, I'm never going to find it as compelling as a relationship that has something going for it and does give something real to both people -- even if it's doomed.

I had been thinking re: Jack and Vaughn and what I would require to buy it -- to see it as something that was based in their personalities as individuals. (As you say, in most Jack/Vaughn stories, you could plop in names from "The Sentinel" or "MI5" or any other fandom with missions, and it would make no difference.) I'd have to see something based in (a) their shared feeling for Sydney -- obviously problematic for Vaughn, but not impossible to work with, and (b) calling upon the symmetry of their betrayal by the wives they then killed -- obviously problematic for Jack, whose wife didn't die, but again not impossible. If the writer really pulled on those two emotional threads, it might work for me. I'd have to see, though.

(In fairness, the story "Amsterdam" seemed to work hard with Vaughn and Jack as independent characters; I ended up losing interest in it and not finishing it, but it was not because she was treating Vaughn and Jack as archetypes. So it can be done, even if I'm not terribly interested in seeing it done.)

[kangeiko]

It's the lack of respect factor.

I totally get this, tho for me, it's not so much lack of respect as an emotional maturity imbalance (or emotioal leverage). So, Buffy/Giles (or, as you say, Giles/any Scooby), most Snape/Harry, all Sirius/Harry, some Sydney/Sloane (if it's Sloane that doing the chasing. Sydney having an inappopriate crush I'm fine with because, hey, angst!) - any pairing that has an almost predatory person, I'd say. I'd use predatory in this instance to mean someone who is aware of the power imbalance and the way that this negates 'free consent' and dissolves neautral circumstances to produce a coersive environment - and does it anyway. That, to me, indicates things I'd rather not think about my favourite characters, namely that, below all that appealing exterior, they are rapists at heart. The creation of incest fluff makes me quake in my boots. How is it physically possible to write a fic wherein it is morally acceptable and therefore fluffy for Lucius to interfere with his ten year old son? How is that a smutty PWP? It's beyond me. *shrug* This could be because I've spent a year studying rape law, but, anyway. If one of the pair is under the emotional control of the other through immaturity, then, IMO, consent cannot be given. Which makes it rape.

I rant about other squicks here. Because, as it turns out, I am easily squicked.

Oh, as for Anakin/Palpatine - well, Anakin's no boy. He makes his own choices and his own mistakes. While their relationship is necessarily unequal, he's not emotionally stunted. That is, he understands the choices that he makes have repercussions, and that he may lose many things in his life. But he decides to make those choices because he thinks that it's the best thing to do to protect the person he loves (and, really, the Jedi council were stupendously useless in working out how he was feeling and taking steps to assuage his fears). It might not be the best choice, and while he is manipulated, I'd argue that he wants to be (in terms of turning to the Dark Side, rather than manipulated into bed, if you see what I mean), just as much as Jack wants to be manipulated to doing You Know What to You Know Who. It achieves the end goal - protect Padme, protect You Know Who, revel in your power or revenge - and it eases moral responsibility and culpability if you can say, yes, but so-and-so tricked me into doing it. They are certainly both clever and powerful enough to realise that they are being manipulated, yet they do nothing. If we were to dismiss them as victims, I think that we'd be severly underestaming their dedication to their choices, whatever they may be.

Does that contradict what I said earlier? *scrolls up*

[queenspanky.livejournal.com]

I replied to your squicks as well K darling, but thought I would also post here as I totally get and unfortunately love power imbalance fics. Mainly due to a love of authority figures and the angst it causes.

On another note, I kinda get, though am not a massive fan of, Spike/Xander fic purely because I always thought their snarking was cover for attraction. And the fics tend to be hilarious, as Spike snark is a wonderful thing to read. Just my thoughts - see more after your post!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'd use predatory in this instance to mean someone who is aware of the power imbalance and the way that this negates 'free consent' and dissolves neautral circumstances to produce a coersive environment - and does it anyway. That, to me, indicates things I'd rather not think about my favourite characters, namely that, below all that appealing exterior, they are rapists at heart.

Yes. It's probably different if you want to write a story in which said favourite character deliberately exploits the power imbalance, but somehow I doubt that's the intention with many of these pairings.

Incest fluff: ew. Thankfully, I didn't read any Lucius/Draco, but I did have a look at what struck me as the most incredible thing ever (little did I know, this was years ago) in this regard: an Indiana Jones slash story in which Indy gets paired up with his father Henry, because, as the author informs us, if they hadn't been father and son characters played by Harrison Ford and Sean Connery would have been paired up a long time ago. I didn't make it beyond the first conversation in Indy realizes he has sexual feelings and Henry cheerfully tells him that the Greeks never had a problem with father/son pairings, because at that point not even anthropological curiosity could beat the apalled historian in me.

Oh, as for Anakin/Palpatine - well, Anakin's no boy. He makes his own choices and his own mistakes.

True, and good comparison on the wanting-to-be-tricked thing with Jack. Also, so far everyone sees the dynamic as twisted, not the way of idyllic bliss, and I hope we're safe from Anakin/Palpatine fluff for good. (Otoh, given the Lucius thing you mentioned... though perhaps Ian McDiarmid's age will save us, again.)

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

I hope we're safe from Anakin/Palpatine fluff for good [...] perhaps Ian McDiarmid's age will save us, again

...I still shudder at the thought of the "domestic bliss with Palpatine" Mary Sue fic I once received as a submission for the SPEB. Don't have it anymore, though -- I'm pretty sure it vanished in one e-mail crash or another. But the point is: don't underestimate the power of scary fluff. It's out there.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Domestic... Help! But you're right. I should not have underestimated the power of the fluff.

So, did the Mary Sue give him children and grandchildren as well?

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

I don't recall any children. It was this whole... adoring Stepford Wife greets husband coming home from his oh-so-important work thing. Frighteningly suburban-upper-middle-class. More of a Mary Sue for a middle-aged woman than for a teenager.

[kangeiko]

Yes. It's probably different if you want to write a story in which said favourite character deliberately exploits the power imbalance, but somehow I doubt that's the intention with many of these pairings.

Which is why I'm slowly developing an interest in Jack/Nadia, as I think that there could be some serious manipulation and exploitation on Jack's part, especially early on in S4 or late S3. But no one seems to be working with this in other fandoms! It's all very depressing.

I did have a look at what struck me as the most incredible thing ever (little did I know, this was years ago) in this regard: an Indiana Jones slash story in which Indy gets paired up with his father Henry, because, as the author informs us, if they hadn't been father and son characters played by Harrison Ford and Sean Connery would have been paired up a long time ago.

Er. . .

What?

I didn't make it beyond the first conversation in Indy realizes he has sexual feelings and Henry cheerfully tells him that the Greeks never had a problem with father/son pairings, because at that point not even anthropological curiosity could beat the apalled historian in me.

*headdesk*

I was going to have a long, in-depth analysis, but I think that the above sums it up nicely.

True, and good comparison on the wanting-to-be-tricked thing with Jack. Also, so far everyone sees the dynamic as twisted, not the way of idyllic bliss, and I hope we're safe from Anakin/Palpatine fluff for good. (Otoh, given the Lucius thing you mentioned... though perhaps Ian McDiarmid's age will save us, again.)

If I ever read Anakin/Palpatine fluff, I solemnly swear to stab my own eyes out.

[leia-naberrie.livejournal.com]

Because that leaves me in the dark again about why I feel like retching whenever I see someone mentioning Jack/Vaughn...


I don't think so. Look at your 2 ingredients for a 'realistic fan-shipiness':

whether the characters in question have an interesting relationship in canon already (can be friendly, can be hostile, but must be interesting and there and present before the sex factor enters,


Between Anakin/Palpatine - that's a given.


whether there is some basic equality and respect between the characters in question.


Before Anakin fell into the lava, Palpatine thought [and told Yoda] that Vader would become more powerful than all of them. And the very desperation with which he pursued Anakin to be his Sith apprentice shows just how much respect he had for Anakin's powers. I think it was post-lava pit that the balance of power shifted.


So... does that answer the question?

But between you and me, the idea of Anakin(Vader)/Palpatine AND Jack/Vaughn is also retch-worthy. :p

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It does indeed. Grazie!