"Smashed", the audio commentary
Aug. 14th, 2003 06:28 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakFellow 'Scapers, be thanked for your advice following yesterday's entry. I think I now have a solid program for the weekend.
More love for the BTVS writing staff, in this case, Drew Z. Greenberg. I watched Smashed yesterday, first without and then with the audio commentary. Writers named Drew certainly get challenging debuts, don't they? (Drew Goddard, after all, ended up with Selfless.) Far from being a monster of the week ep, Smashed had two crucial arc-important plot points for the writer to include - Willow's magical powertrip reaching unprecedented heights in the aftermath of Tara leaving and the de-ratting of Amy, and of course the Buffy/Spike sex. And Smashed arrives there in a flow which feels completely logical, emotionally.
I had heard Drew Greenberg before, in one of the Succubus Club interviews (where he was nice but also ticked off at the whole "dead lesbian stereotype" uproar since he was, he said, himself gay. But that had been a joint interview (together with Jane Espenson, I think), and this was the first time I heard him comment on the show alone. So, some bits and impressions from his audio commentary:
1) The writers really were and are in love with the Trio ("our guys", "I can't tell you how much fun it was writing them"), while at the same time using them to poke some fun at themselves; their self-confessed geekiness and fannishness is very endearing, as when Greenberg confesses he took a screen capture of his name appearing for the first time in the credits (over the frozen museum guard).
2) Tara's scenes with Dawn causes Greenberg to comment that the break-up with Willow was their chance to strengthen Tara as a character, to show her being strong in herself, not just as Willow's girlfriend, and to show her in other relationships (as with Dawn and later in the season with Buffy) to the point that "when Willow and Tara do get back together again, it is on Tara's terms". (I could quibble about that - yes, Tara makes the decision but I always felt she let her love for Willow override her caution that Willow had dealt only with the symptoms, not with the causes. But anyway, that's what Greenberg said.)
3) Willow using the laptop by magically connecting with the internet in order to do research was Joss' idea, as a foreshadowing of Willow absorbing the books of the magic shop late in the season. Greenberg's comments on Willow throughout are pretty much on the "hubris" note (the dreaded term addiction is never used, though "out of control" is), but with sympathy; when Amy suggests going out and adds "or you could just stay at home as you did in high school" he says that is how others could always get Willow, by exploiting her complex about her high school nerd past.
4) He's justifiably proud of the "Rat"/"Dead" exchange between Amy and Buffy but says it's also a triumph of acting and editing so it came across just like he had imagined.
5) As I said, much praise for the Trio; he mentions having known Tom Lenk before, through a play.
6) In his pitch, he had suggested that in the Bronze in the scene where the two guys turn on Willow and Amy, Willow would snap her fingers and force the boys to make out with each other, make them unable to stop kissing. Joss said no and suggested the dancing boy thing instead, because he didn't want to imply
a) that you can change sexuality with a finger snap and
b) that boy-on-boy kissing is ever a punishment.
"At that point, I realized two things. One, I was in the hands of a master, and two, Joss Whedon being straight is the biggest waste of all time. He'd make such a fabulous gay man."
7) Speaking of the boys: apparently, the actors are called Adam and Jordan, and Greenberg praises them for being real troopers and hanging around the set for a day in "their bikinis"; that was the day his agent came to visit ("so who knows what he thought").
8) In the Boba Fett scene: "Yes, I have a shelf with action figures at home. So?"
9) Much regular actor praise, particularly for AH, JM ("those cheekbones!") and SMG ("and here's another example of why Sarah is so very good at what she does, using dialogue like an opera singer to express much more", said when Buffy fumbles her way through explaining Spike's phone call to Xander and Willow "but I told him that I …would…not", and Drew Greenberg says it again after Buffy's "get out of my way" ("there is a hint of a smile there in her voice - there is much more going on here underneath").
A random observation of my own: I remember that after the scene with Spike and the Trio, which still cracks me up, there was much speculation that Warren might use the chip to control Spike at a later point now that he had learned about it (but, and the dialogue makes a point of including this, not what it does). This of course never happened, and I can see why - a Spike controlled by someone else would not fit with the season 6 story arcs. But leaving aside such mundane real life stuff - I wonder why Warren never tried to find out what the chip was all about?
Also: dialogue bit I didn't remember for some mysterious reason:
Spike (to Warren): "…I want you to have a look at my chip."
Jonathan: "Is that some sort of weird euphemism, 'cause we're not…"
Spike (still to Warren): "The chip in my head."
More love for the BTVS writing staff, in this case, Drew Z. Greenberg. I watched Smashed yesterday, first without and then with the audio commentary. Writers named Drew certainly get challenging debuts, don't they? (Drew Goddard, after all, ended up with Selfless.) Far from being a monster of the week ep, Smashed had two crucial arc-important plot points for the writer to include - Willow's magical powertrip reaching unprecedented heights in the aftermath of Tara leaving and the de-ratting of Amy, and of course the Buffy/Spike sex. And Smashed arrives there in a flow which feels completely logical, emotionally.
I had heard Drew Greenberg before, in one of the Succubus Club interviews (where he was nice but also ticked off at the whole "dead lesbian stereotype" uproar since he was, he said, himself gay. But that had been a joint interview (together with Jane Espenson, I think), and this was the first time I heard him comment on the show alone. So, some bits and impressions from his audio commentary:
1) The writers really were and are in love with the Trio ("our guys", "I can't tell you how much fun it was writing them"), while at the same time using them to poke some fun at themselves; their self-confessed geekiness and fannishness is very endearing, as when Greenberg confesses he took a screen capture of his name appearing for the first time in the credits (over the frozen museum guard).
2) Tara's scenes with Dawn causes Greenberg to comment that the break-up with Willow was their chance to strengthen Tara as a character, to show her being strong in herself, not just as Willow's girlfriend, and to show her in other relationships (as with Dawn and later in the season with Buffy) to the point that "when Willow and Tara do get back together again, it is on Tara's terms". (I could quibble about that - yes, Tara makes the decision but I always felt she let her love for Willow override her caution that Willow had dealt only with the symptoms, not with the causes. But anyway, that's what Greenberg said.)
3) Willow using the laptop by magically connecting with the internet in order to do research was Joss' idea, as a foreshadowing of Willow absorbing the books of the magic shop late in the season. Greenberg's comments on Willow throughout are pretty much on the "hubris" note (the dreaded term addiction is never used, though "out of control" is), but with sympathy; when Amy suggests going out and adds "or you could just stay at home as you did in high school" he says that is how others could always get Willow, by exploiting her complex about her high school nerd past.
4) He's justifiably proud of the "Rat"/"Dead" exchange between Amy and Buffy but says it's also a triumph of acting and editing so it came across just like he had imagined.
5) As I said, much praise for the Trio; he mentions having known Tom Lenk before, through a play.
6) In his pitch, he had suggested that in the Bronze in the scene where the two guys turn on Willow and Amy, Willow would snap her fingers and force the boys to make out with each other, make them unable to stop kissing. Joss said no and suggested the dancing boy thing instead, because he didn't want to imply
a) that you can change sexuality with a finger snap and
b) that boy-on-boy kissing is ever a punishment.
"At that point, I realized two things. One, I was in the hands of a master, and two, Joss Whedon being straight is the biggest waste of all time. He'd make such a fabulous gay man."
7) Speaking of the boys: apparently, the actors are called Adam and Jordan, and Greenberg praises them for being real troopers and hanging around the set for a day in "their bikinis"; that was the day his agent came to visit ("so who knows what he thought").
8) In the Boba Fett scene: "Yes, I have a shelf with action figures at home. So?"
9) Much regular actor praise, particularly for AH, JM ("those cheekbones!") and SMG ("and here's another example of why Sarah is so very good at what she does, using dialogue like an opera singer to express much more", said when Buffy fumbles her way through explaining Spike's phone call to Xander and Willow "but I told him that I …would…not", and Drew Greenberg says it again after Buffy's "get out of my way" ("there is a hint of a smile there in her voice - there is much more going on here underneath").
A random observation of my own: I remember that after the scene with Spike and the Trio, which still cracks me up, there was much speculation that Warren might use the chip to control Spike at a later point now that he had learned about it (but, and the dialogue makes a point of including this, not what it does). This of course never happened, and I can see why - a Spike controlled by someone else would not fit with the season 6 story arcs. But leaving aside such mundane real life stuff - I wonder why Warren never tried to find out what the chip was all about?
Also: dialogue bit I didn't remember for some mysterious reason:
Spike (to Warren): "…I want you to have a look at my chip."
Jonathan: "Is that some sort of weird euphemism, 'cause we're not…"
Spike (still to Warren): "The chip in my head."
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 09:10 pm (UTC)Heh - I'd forgotten that dialogue as well ... and now I know why *grin*
Thank you.
Date: 2003-08-14 04:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 09:37 pm (UTC)There's actually a very well-written story about this called Leashing the Beast, by Nos. It's recently finished, and it's a great story. :) (http://www.allaboutspike.com/fic.html?id=100)
Thanks for the tip!
Date: 2003-08-14 04:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-13 09:43 pm (UTC)I think it's the mixture of accuracy and affection that makes the Trio work. They're more than shallow stereotypes of geeks, they are geeks, refined for TV. You can tell that the people writing them had had those conversations, or conversations very like them.
I could quibble about that - yes, Tara makes the decision but I always felt she let her love for Willow override her caution.
On the rare occasions where Tara does something wrong - and Family and Becoming are pretty much it - it's because her love for Willow overcomes her good sense. I've always felt some disquiet over the speedy reunion, and I suspect that things wouldn't have been all smooth sailing even if Warren had taken proper care when aiming.
"At that point, I realized two things. One, I was in the hands of a master, and two, Joss Whedon being straight is the biggest waste of all time. He'd make such a fabulous gay man."
Oh, that's a fantastic story. Thanks for repeating it *g*.
But leaving aside such mundane real life stuff - I wonder why Warren never tried to find out what the chip was all about?
Maybe he did, and we just didn't hear about it ... or he's just afraid of Spike. There's always a wariness when Warren's around him, actually, that he doesn't have around Buffy. Maybe he takes Spike more seriously because he's a guy, or maybe it's just the vampirism. In either case, he always ends up doing what Spike wants.
Jonathan: "Is that some sort of weird euphemism, 'cause we're not…"
Heh. Well, OK, Jonathan, you're not. I guess Andrew's denial and over-compensation were working at that point, at least on the more oblivious of his friends.
It's kind of a pity they never got to deal with Jonathan's reaction to Andrew's sexuality - he's figured out that Andrew has a big gay crush on Warren by the time they're in jail (hence 'your girlfriend's pathetic!') but they didn't have time to follow through on the implications.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-14 04:52 am (UTC)Interestingly, Warren seems to have seen through Andrew in this regard right from the start. Unless he was just kidding in Life Serial, where we get the following:
Jonathan (preparing spell): I need you guys to hold hands.
Andrew (panicked): With each other?
Warren (amused, to Andrew): You know what homophobia really
says about you, don't you?
At a guess, it's because of all the three, Warren is the only one who actually had had a functioning sexual relationship. (Yes, Jonathan had the twins, but that was fantasy-come-true.) He's got his own share of neuroses - does he ever - but is pretty relaxed about sexual identity. Andrew is still figuring his out at that point, and Jonathan is far too much into the supervillain fantasy (yet) to wonder.
(Somehow I doubt Jonathan ever read Xavier/Magneto slash.*g* Or Batman slash, or whatever. Or thought about the homoerotic potential in comics.)
It's kind of a pity they never got to deal with Jonathan's reaction to Andrew's sexuality - he's figured out that Andrew has a big gay crush on Warren by the time they're in jail (hence 'your girlfriend's pathetic!') but they didn't have time to follow through on the implications.
Have you read Christina Kammikar's story about Jonathan and Andrew in Mexico? Written between seasons, but it holds up quite well. It's Jonathan's pov, and she lets him think that Andrew isn't as much gay as hopelessly addicted to approval and getting it any way he can. Which is true enough but not the complete truth, and in any case a reasonable conclusion for Jonathan to draw.
Otoh, the Mexico flashback in Storyteller can also be used for a hurt/comfort scenario if one wants to write one - they do share the same bed, after all.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-15 11:21 pm (UTC)That's certainly when Andrew first pinged my gaydar (as opposed to the slash radar, which is a rather different instrument.) And even if Warren was kidding then, I suspect he figured it out pretty soon after. If nothing else, surely it would have come out during Once More, With Feeling? Even if they were just singing about what to watch on TV ...
He's got his own share of neuroses - does he ever - but is pretty relaxed about sexual identity.
Yeah. Apart from anything else, he's very relaxed about touching the other two, and not only when he's being manipulative or violent. Watch him while he's physical reassuring Jonathan during Flooded after the M'Fashnik demon drops him.
Somehow I doubt Jonathan ever read Xavier/Magneto slash.*g* Or Batman slash, or whatever. Or thought about the homoerotic potential in comics.
Jonathan is not one for noticing subtext of any kind, really *g*. Andrew, on the other hand, can see slash UST everywhere, and I doubt that's something new in Season Seven.
Have you read Christina Kammikar's story about Jonathan and Andrew in Mexico?
I have indeed - great story, and it does hold up remarkably well in light of Season Seven.
Otoh, the Mexico flashback in Storyteller can also be used for a hurt/comfort scenario if one wants to write one - they do share the same bed, after all.
I have a mental image of Xander trying to explain to Andrew that, no, really, he's straight, and a blithely undetered Andrew saying that yes, he gets that, because Warren and Jonathan were straight as well ...
Jonathan and Andrew's relationship in Mexico must have been seriously weird in a number of ways, especially from Jonathan's point of view. The thing about Andrew is that he comes across as totally transparent - most people who know him probably think he's incapable of having a thought that doesn't immediately get expressed aloud. And Jonathan's just found out that this is not the case at all. He doesn't know Andrew nearly as well as he thought he did.
Andrew betrayed him, and Andrew is attracted to guys, and I doubt that the two revelations are entirely unlinked in Jonathan's mind. The shared bed suggests that he's managed to come to terms with one or both of them, either out of necessity or because (many transgressions aside) Jonathan is nice enough to try and take proper care of Andrew.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-17 09:02 pm (UTC)Someday, someone who can do filk will have to write the missing Trio scenes from Once More, With Feeling!
Jonathan is not one for noticing subtext of any kind, really *g*. Andrew, on the other hand, can see slash UST everywhere, and I doubt that's something new in Season Seven.
Now I'm imagining fierce debates among the three after Andrew declares X/M is canon, too.*g*
I have a mental image of Xander trying to explain to Andrew that, no, really, he's straight, and a blithely undetered Andrew saying that yes, he gets that, because Warren and Jonathan were straight as well ...
He. Also, Xander did ask to be gay'ed up in Andrew's presence...
no subject
Date: 2003-08-18 04:59 am (UTC)That would be wonderful ... you know, much as I liked the musical flashback in Selfless, I do rather wish they'd held off and done one in Storyteller instead. It would have fitted the mood of the episode perfectly, and according to interviews I've seen the Trio were somewhat dispointed they didn't get to be in Once More, With Feeling - not surprising since two out of three of them sing. It would have been such fun.
(You know, now that I think about it, they could have used it to iron out the bizarre plot twist of OMWF too. How much more sense would it have made if Andrew has summoned a demon that caused a spontaneous outbreak of musical theatre, and then they'd later brainwashed Xander into thinking that he'd done it via one of Jonathan's spells, and planted the dohicky in the Magic Box ...?)
Now I'm imagining fierce debates among the three after Andrew declares X/M is canon, too.*g*
Oh, yeah - he might be tentative about it at first, but in Ultimate canon there's really no non-slashy way of reading the relationship ...
A: Dude!
J: What?
A: Professor X and Magneto were doing it!
J: Eeeeeew!
W: Lemme see that ... huh. So Magneto is a cannibal and gay? That's so ... gay.
J: No way! They're ... old. And bald. Well, not Magneto ...
A: So, uh, do you guys think this means that they were doing it in the comics and the movie as well ...?
J: Stop giving me mental pictures I don't need!
Also, Xander did ask to be gay'ed up in Andrew's presence...
And apparently he has a think for Captain Archer too. You know, he really should have asked Andrew - he has more than enough gayness, and I'm sure he'd be more than willing to share.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-18 10:32 pm (UTC)LOL about the dialogue. Yes, that's how I imagine it.
But why on earth both Xander and Andrew can have a thing for Captain Archer instead of Captain Picard is completely beyond me...
no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 06:07 am (UTC)You know, now that I think about it, they could have used it to iron out the bizarre plot twist of OMWF too. How much more sense would it have made if Andrew has summoned a demon that caused a spontaneous outbreak of musical theatre, and then they'd later brainwashed Xander into thinking that he'd done it via one of Jonathan's spells, and planted the dohicky in the Magic Box ...?
I think that's a brilliant idea! That makes a lot more sense than Xander saying "I didn't know what was gonna happen! I just thought there were gonna be dances and songs. I just wanted to make sure we'd... we'd work out. Get a happy ending." That didn't seem like something Xander would do.
Errr, actually...
Date: 2003-09-15 09:01 am (UTC)Re: Errr, actually...
Date: 2003-09-15 09:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 06:19 pm (UTC)Thanks *g*.
If you want to read the finished story, it's up here.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 05:41 am (UTC)You meant Bargaining, right?
no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 06:17 pm (UTC)Naturally, since Tara wasn't invented when Becoming was written *g*. It was a typo ...
no subject
Date: 2003-08-14 05:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-14 05:28 am (UTC)a) that you can change sexuality with a finger snap and
b) that boy-on-boy kissing is ever a punishment.
OMG, I never would have thought about that, but he is probably right. Especially when you consider it would have been Willow instigating it. There was enough backlash after Tara was killed (which always perplexed me), this would have only added fuel to the fire.
Thank you ever so much for the commentary synopsis. It will be about a year before we get season 6 released in the U.S. I especially liked Drew's comment regarding Buffy telling Spike to 'get out of her way', the hint of a smile while saying it, and that it shows that there was more going on there. Not that I need an excuse to watch Smashed again, but I think it will be interesting to view it in the context he described.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-14 06:35 am (UTC)Glad to hear his praise of the actors, as this episode was I thought very character driven rather than plot driven, so their contributions were extremely important. The scenes he mentions of Sarah are two of my favorites as well, along with Buffy's hilarious phone conversation with Spike :)
Joss may not be a gay man--
Date: 2003-08-14 08:39 pm (UTC)According to...
Date: 2003-08-15 01:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 04:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 04:43 am (UTC)This also brings up an issue a lot of people have with season 6, which is that magic used as a metaphor for drug addiction was hokey and unrealistic. I think people thought it was a "jumping the shark" moment. I have always felt that there were deeper reasons for Willow using magic as a drug. They just never addressed it on the show. The writers themselves were only addressing the symptoms, and not the causes. But it's nice to know they (or just Drew Greenburg?) were thinking about it.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 08:52 am (UTC)~Nikki~
There was no reference...
Date: 2003-09-16 05:25 am (UTC)Re: There was no reference...
Date: 2003-09-16 08:33 am (UTC)~Nikki~
no subject
Date: 2003-09-15 12:51 pm (UTC)Also: dialogue bit I didn't remember for some mysterious reason:
I don't remember it either. I'll have to go back and check my tape, but in the U.S. with the F/X repeats, sometimes important gay/suggestive/slashy dialogue lines get omitted by F/X, in some evil sort of censorship ploy.
I know they have to cut some stuff for time, but one little 3-second line (in the case of their cutting Xander's "do I have to be your ... queen" line in OMWF which *always* pisses me off) should not have much of an impact on how many commercials they can show.
There was also a Xander line about Angel being handsome and muscular or whatever, in season one, that F/X cut.
Thank you very much for your summary of the commentary, it should help sustain me in my long year of waiting for Season 6 to arrive in the U.S.
You're welcome.
Date: 2003-09-16 05:26 am (UTC)