Dr. Who 3/29.09 Family of Blood

[selenak]

I think we have a new contender for the best two-parter throne which wasn't the case since Moffat's The Empy Child/ The Doctor Dances.



Martha continues to be stellar, with the way she turned her hostage situation around into saving everyone being beyond awesome. It reminded me of one review from last week that stated that Martha basically becomes the Doctor (as well as being a doctor in training anyway) in this two parter, with the real thing being John Smith.

John Smith is the quintessential pseudonym. Nemo. Nobody. Everyman. And John Smith is ordinary; not a hero, a man of his times with all that implies, who might dream of adventures but doesn't want them, not really. He wants a happily ever after, a long and married life with Joan Redfern, and none of his family to die before he does.

And yet, John Smith also when watching the school children put in a battle situation - something he helped training them for - grasps the quintessential wrongness of this, and does not let them proceed to actual killing. Instead, he tells them to retreat, to flee, which makes him a good deal better than those generals a year later who will sacrifice an entire generation. John Smith isn't a hero, he can't come up with brilliant twists and last minute rescues, and he most certainly does not want to die. Hearing that he is basically not real, someone else's creation, that even his body is not his own is horrible to him, and for whom wouldn't it be? But eventually, faced with the alternative being ever more death and bombardment from the sky (foreshadowing another war), he sacrifices his life and his future.

There is another alter ego of the Doctor running around in these episodes, besides John Smith and Martha - Timothy Latimer. Timothy, with his "coward any time" line and quiet courage, is echoing an earlier state, a state of innocence which the Doctor doesn't have any more. A state of mercy. Timothy at the end of our stay in 1913 "knows what he has to do", which is saving his school mates in the trenches, the same school mates who bullied him, and he does. He saves them. And he lives that long life John Smith wanted, growing old in peace.

Meanwhile, the Doctor is "ancient and forever". And once again verifies he meant his "no second chances" approach, and had meant it when he told another (fake) headmaster - "I am so old now. I used to have so much mercy." It's not the first time this season, either. For all its lightheartedness, The Shakespeare Code ended with the three villains trapped in a jar. Forever. And he has every intention of keeping them that way. When Timothy, facing Daughter-of-Mine, asks "do you really want to face this?" and opens the clock containing the Doctor's Timelord essence, we get a glimpse of the climactic scene in The Runaway Bride where the Doctor commits on screen genocide. (Only the second version of the Doctor to do so - Seven did it as well (bye, Skaro), Four and Nine couldn't.) The final revelation - that the Doctor hid from the Family as an act of kindness, because he knew they had a three month life span and wanted to outwait them rather than fight them - and the final twist - the punishments he inflicts on them with their fairy tale (a fairy tale written by Neil Gaiman or Angela Carter) grimness - bring home both the age and the alienness of the Doctor in a way few episodes do.

(Oh, and it ties him yet again to his Seventh Regeneration for whom Paul Cornell originally wrote the story - Seven specialized in trapping villains who thought they were trapping him.)

So does his goodbye to Joan. And Joan's single devastating question - "If you had not come here on a whim, would anyone have died?". Such a great scene, incredibly beautiful in its harshness and truth, and terrifically acted by both participants.

I love this two parter.

P.S. Paul Cornell, the writer of both these episodes and the novel "Human Nature" they're based on, about adapting his novel for the screen.

Comments

[kernezelda]

I was riveted in place. This is the quintessential Ten and Martha story, as compelling as Nine and Rose at their best.

Nine and Rose were a terrific pair, Rose and Ten were painful to watch, but Ten and Martha have got wonderful chemistry.

I loved Latimer's description of what the Doctor is, how aweful, how terrible, how wonderful, forever.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That was pure poetry, wasn't it? And I agree about Ten and Martha. Though when it comes to their relationship as opposed to the characters themselves, the quintessential scene for me so far is the finale of Gridlock, when she makes him tell her the truth about Gallifrey.

[kernezelda]

In Gridlock, that was one of the very few times he opens himself to a companion, isn't it? When he talked about his own world, and what he loved and lost, it made my heart ache. I think this arc affected me more because I didn't much care for Gridlock overall, but I was thoroughly engaged in HM/FoB. Also, seeing him/John Smith and Joan Redfern glimpse the future that might have been, and the sacrifice of that.

Redfern was a very solid, strong character. She was a woman of her time, with that casual classism and racism, unremarkable and unremarked, the same as everyone else. She was also sympathetic, moral, brave, not afraid to go after what she wanted, and strong enough to give it up, as well.

Martha blazed across the screen. She's training to be a doctor, and in this, she had to act in the Doctor's place, and did so with intelligence, strength and decisiveness. She dealt with the racism and classism, stayed in character until the crisis forced her hand, and refused to back down in the face of Smith's resistance. The one time she really pushed her point about it was when confronting Redfern about being in training to be a doctor, and even that was a burst of frustration, not particular resentment at Redfern.

Latimer was also a very good character, as you say, a reflection of the Doctor. I liked the boy very much, quiet and thoughtful, brave in a quieter way. I liked his resourcefulness going forward into the future, using his knowledge of it to save his companion and himself.

These were excellent episodes. *happy sigh*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

In Gridlock, that was one of the very few times he opens himself to a companion, isn't it? When he talked about his own world, and what he loved and lost, it made my heart ache.

Yes. He doesn't do that very often - I mean, joke references a la "Janis Joplin gave me that coat!", sure, but something so personal as this, no. It's definitely the most we ever heard him tell anyone about Gallifrey in New Who.

Redfern was a very solid, strong character. She was a woman of her time, with that casual classism and racism, unremarkable and unremarked, the same as everyone else. She was also sympathetic, moral, brave, not afraid to go after what she wanted, and strong enough to give it up, as well.

Indeed. It would have been easy to make her into something unreal, give her only sympathetic traits - i.e. let her be the one member of the staff who doesn't share in the classism and racism - but no, and that made her truly believable to me. I think my three favourite Joan Redfern scenes were: a) her asking John Smith to go dancing with her, b) her telling him how the gunfire affected her, due to her husband dying in war, and c) the goodbye between her and the Doctor. A wonderfully realized character.

Martha blazed across the screen. She's training to be a doctor, and in this, she had to act in the Doctor's place, and did so with intelligence, strength and decisiveness. She dealt with the racism and classism, stayed in character until the crisis forced her hand, and refused to back down in the face of Smith's resistance. The one time she really pushed her point about it was when confronting Redfern about being in training to be a doctor, and even that was a burst of frustration, not particular resentment at Redfern.

Yes, and when she told her she was sorry for what she was about to do at the end of Human Nature, you knew she meant it. The show does such a great show-not-tell-approach with Martha - we know she's brave, smart and strong because we can see her act. *hearts Martha*


I liked the boy very much, quiet and thoughtful, brave in a quieter way. I liked his resourcefulness going forward into the future, using his knowledge of it to save his companion and himself.

To take that horrifying vision of the trenches and then use it in a way that saves lives - that was both a brilliant and a courageous and compassionate thing to do.

*is happy, too*

[kathyh]

I love this two parter.

So did I. J and I were both a quivering mess at the end. At times it reached the levels of pure poetry on the screen. The only thing I was left wondering about at the end was whether the choice of 1913 had been completely random because it seemed such a harsh place to take Matha to.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

1913: I think it's said in the hectic intro that it's the TARDIS' choice, but I'm not sure. Will have to rewatch.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It is said -- the Doctor says that the TARDIS will pick the time and place and make up a backstory for him -- but I think that we hear it when Martha goes back to the ship and we have that flashback.

[g_shadowslayer]

I loved it too -- although I really, REALLY would have loved to see Nine be the one meting out the punishments.

I have a way it could work with this, though, since the restoration happens offscreen -- I just need to be coherent enough to write something up about it...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ah, but Nine wouldn't have done it. Nine had the leather jacket and the look, but he wasn't nearly as ruthless as Ten (who looks nice, but isn't, though he can fake it pretty well). He was mostly an immediate post war victim. Nearly every single time he had to make a hard decision, he couldn't (most glaringly in World War Three and Parting of the Ways, which I always read as one major reason - in addition to saving Rose, of course - that he basically committed suicide so the next regeneration could take over. Whoever he'd be afterwards, it was a pretty save shot to say he'd be better equipped to handle it.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

This is such an excellent point! I hadn't thought about it that way, but Nine did have trouble making the hard choices, because he was still recovering from having made the hardest choice of all.

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

Joan's question made that episode for me.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. It was the, no pun intended, human core of it.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

As you probably know, I don't like Tennant's Doctor very much; I dislike him when he's goofy, I dislike him when he's angsty, and that doesn't seem to leave very much. But I do like him when he's a ruthless old Time Lord, so Son-of-Mine's narration of his punishment made the episode for me.*

When the Tenth Doctor assumes the role of Nemesis, he reminds me of the Seventh Doctor, and of the Ninth in what, with hindsight, I see as the key scene of his season, and maybe the whole of the revival: when he condemns Cassandra to die - not by killing her, just by letting nature assert itself, because "Everything has its time, and everything dies."** That's a message underlying much of the series, from Rose's mistaken attempt to preserve her father to this story. The Doctor tries to allow the Family to die naturally, but when they defy the laws of time and mortality he shows them how unnatural their goal is.

* It helped, too, that I wasn't having to look at Son-of-Mine doing silly evil faces any more.

** This was one of the reasons why I hated New Earth so much: by casually retconning that Cassandra didn't die that time, they undercut the power of that scene. Cassandra got a second chance, allowing her to die nicely, and she shouldn't have done.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I was definitely reminded of the Seventh Doctor but not of the Ninth, though you are right about Cassandra; otherwise, though, the Ninth Doctor actually reads mostly as a post war victim to me, avoiding the hard decisions rather than making them, because he can't make them anymore. (Notably in World War Three and Parting of the Ways.)

The Doctor tries to allow the Family to die naturally, but when they defy the laws of time and mortality he shows them how unnatural their goal is.

Yes. And in a horrifying and yet absolutely fitting way.

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Yes. And in a horrifying and yet absolutely fitting way.

The ruthless irony of the whole "You wanted immortality? OK, but you're gonna regret asking for it!" thing reminded me very strongly of "The Five Doctors." My brain wants to make something of that, something about there being a similarity between the last of the Time Lords and the first, but I'm not entirely sure what. :)

[shezan.livejournal.com]

That was, overall, my favourite Doctor instalment ever. Everything you say is true; plus, the visual and musical settings were superbly complex and clever - the time and effort spent in getting flash images of John's future life looking just right; the boy's choir; the faces of the modern young soldiers at the Memorial at the end; the cricket ball trick saving the mother-and-pram (that't the British answer to Eisenstein's Potemkin, surely!); Tennant's accent changingn as "John Smith"; the 1920s clothes of the family outing in the woods; and Latimer's visions enmshed in the Doctor's universe - we rarely get so many layers in actual movies.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

the time and effort spent in getting flash images of John's future life looking just right

Oh yes! They really looked like they were in the twenties, and in retrospect - not during watching, I was too captivated - I thought, wow, they got the costumes just for those few seconds - so much lovely detail.

the cricket ball trick saving the mother-and-pram (that't the British answer to Eisenstein's Potemkin, surely

LOL. That, and a moment of the Doctor coming through John Smith; the Fifth Doctor was massively into cricket.*g*

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I didn't like the cricket ball thing, to be honest; maybe the stunt itself was OK, but I couldn't believe that someone as sensible as Joan wouldn't say "That was extraordinary, but why on earth didn't you just shout 'Madam, watch out!'"

And I did so wish they'd let Tennant play Smith with his own accent. One, he's so much sexier in Scottish, and two, it would have referred back to John Smith originally being the Seventh Doctor.

(There was a Potemkin joke in Life on Mars, incidentally, with an old lady dragging a shopping bag on wheels.)

[shezan.livejournal.com]

A master with that broad a Scottish accent in a public school, even minor, in 1913, doesn't compute; I can see why they didn't let him. What I don't understand is, why don't they let him play the Doctor with his real accent? What's the accent he's got in most of his performances, as the Doctor or as Casanova, Synthetic Estuary? It'll date him a LOT in thirty years' time.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

It's not very broad... a shame I can't check with my father and uncle on public school accents circa First World War. All I know is that my father was taught the same Erasmian pronunciation of Greek as I learned in the 1970s ("ook ephay"), but then the young Classics master went to the war and the old one came out of retirement, so my uncle learned the old one ("owk ephee"). Nothing about the English they spoke.

I wish even more that Tennant was playing the Doctor with his own accent. I've heard that RTD thought it would be a Bad Thing to follow a northern accent with a Scottish one. Apparently the poor little southerners wouldn't cope.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

Wait a minute, I've remembered my father's cousin saying she got into trouble at Cheltenham Ladies' College for reading Wordsworth with a short northern A, and then for asking how they thought Wordsworth spoke, then.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Wonderful review.

Character-wise, I think, this was the strongest two-parter -- harsh and beautiful and compelling just like the Doctor himself.

Plot-wise, however, I thought several elements were lacking, and I don't at all mean the historical setting, the premise; it was wonderfully set up and magnified the message perfectly, parallels and doubles and role-switching, oh my!

But the villains were Lame with a capital L. (The other two-parter of sublime greatness is, of course, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, and oh, that one had it the mystery and adventure and THE CREEPIEST VILLAIN(S) EVER.)

For some reason, probably the writers being British, marching armies and World War references are a big hit, always, but an army of scarecrows doesn't really have any emotional resonance for me -- it both tries to emulate to yet doesn't even come close to the evil of the Cybermen, who were horrifying because they were twisted perversions of once-human beings, whose grotesque nature rather than physical threat made them more than robotic henchmen.

The Family of Blood -- well, nice idea, but the execution was over-the-top, comic-book style; I'm less partial to this than many fans here, I know, and I am also not so fond of the children's tale nature of Dr. Who, preferring the darker depictions, but in any case, except for the little girl (who really was creepy -- maybe it's an easy device, actually, using children that way), the excellent idea of their existence and their hunt for immortality wasn't properly conveyed.

But oh, Martha! I love her to pieces, and I cannot wait to see more of her.

Of course, I think this episode cemented it pretty well: This companion won't be a romantic interest of Ten, and her love for him, I think, will be interesting to see. (He does love her, of course, even now, already, but there is a myriad emotions *not* about Martha Jones per se in that jumble of feelings, and romance is not a part of it.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

THE CREEPIEST VILLAIN(S) EVER.)

Um. Actually. In New Who, I must admit to preferring ASH as Mr. Finch/Brother Lazarus in School Reunion for sublime creepiness, and in Old Who, I'm going with good old Fenris and his minions.

*is heretic*

Scarecrows: had to be scarecrows because the crucial imagery was them being blown apart by the children's guns, prefiguring WWI again and human bodies blown apart just as easily. To me, that was gut wrenching and thus I shall defend the scarecrows, no, not to the death, but to the PAIN!

Family of Blood: I hurt for poor Jenny taken over so much (as they had taken the trouble to establish her as a character and friend of Martha's before it happened, and I loved that Martha asks whether Jenny is permanently gone, since we needed to know that), and Harry Lloyd was creepy indeed as Baines/Son of Mine, so no complaints there.

He does love her, of course, even now, already, but there is a myriad emotions *not* about Martha Jones per se in that jumble of feelings, and romance is not a part of it

I think as the Doctor, he's not ready to fall in love right now, but he definitely has started to love Martha in the way he loves his companions, and post-Lazarus Experiment is open about wanting her around on a long term basis (for humans, not for him).

...and here's a question I held back from my review, but I can't resist messing with you a little, so:

1) as of Human Nature, it's canon the Doctor had the chameleon device for "ages", i.e. he had it as Nine, he had it as Ten, and presumably he had it before the Time War as well. So, strictly speaking, when he says to Rose in School Reunion "you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend mine with you", he's lying. He could. He could have become human for her. But he. didn't. want. to.

(Consolation for Rose/Doctor'shippers, of which I am not one: presumably he'd never become human on a permanent basis because he's the last of the Time Lords now, and that would be like wiping out his race all over again.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

1) as of Human Nature, it's canon the Doctor had the chameleon device for "ages", i.e. he had it as Nine, he had it as Ten, and presumably he had it before the Time War as well. So, strictly speaking, when he says to Rose in School Reunion "you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend mine with you", he's lying. He could. He could have become human for her. But he. didn't. want. to.

Well, no, of course he didn't. Why on earth would he? Rose wouldn't have wanted that -- she loved him, not his body. The chameleon device completely rewrites you, the Doctor said. He'd have killed the man she loved in order to give her a mockery -- just the idea that was so horrifying to Joan, that Smith could be dead and yet the Doctor expected her to start over with him.

She was in love with the Doctor, including the alien bits of him. Sure, if he went and turned himself human, she'd probably have decided that she loved him anyway, that enough of him was essentially himself to love, but she'd never have asked it of him and I can certainly believe that the Doctor would never expected her to -- once he gets that she loves him back, he realizes that it's as himself -- the regeneration takes care of that.

He couldn't have spent the rest of his life with Rose. Some human man named John Smith could have, but not the Doctor. And it was as the Doctor that he fell in love with her and it was the Doctor that she fell in love with.

And she loved the life, too -- how many times do we see Rose Tyler grinning in the face of peril (so like him, as her mum points out in Army of Ghosts? We see it for the first time in Rose (after she's kicked the anti-plastic into the Consciousness and is about to go into the TARDIS) and for the last time in Doomsday (when she successfully grabs the lever), and many times throughout. She adored the life -- she makes that point herself a the beginning of New Earth.

She'd never have asked the Doctor to clip his wings and the Doctor wanted to show her all the grand and terrible parts of the universe. Two very compelling reasons for the question to never come up.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Dude, I said it first.

Okay, so maybe you POSTED your response first. But!

& ;-)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee! I was amused when I came back to page and saw you saying exactly the same thing. But the way that Rose and the Doctor loved each other was so honestly about the people that they were. She wouldn't have wanted him to lose part of himself -- he wouldn't have wanted to take the chance to explore the universe away from her. They were so alike and so wonderful together.

God, I miss Rose.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

In New Who, I must admit to preferring ASH as Mr. Finch/Brother Lazarus in School Reunion for sublime creepiness

Interesting. I found him terribly awesome yet not creepy per se; maybe it's too much leftover fondness for ASH?

had to be scarecrows because the crucial imagery was them being blown apart by the children's guns, prefiguring WWI again and human bodies blown apart just as easily. To me, that was gut wrenching and thus I shall defend the scarecrows, no, not to the death, but to the PAIN!

Hee.

I got it, mind you; not hard to see what/who they represented, but intellectual understanding does not for emotional resonance make. I don't so much criticise this set-up -- it was a cinematographically effective scene, the one of the brief attack during the siege, the scarecrows mowed down -- as perhaps the execution (pun not intended *g*): The scenes of just single ones, menacing among the cornstalks, worked better for me, but so many of them, then, and generating them out of thin air? Even if there were a hundred fields around, there wouldn't be a hundred scarecrows, and they wouldn't all look like this (I know, I know: Uniform-ity, soldiers, etc.-pp., and YET).

I know this is a story of its own, and perhaps the book does explain it slightly differently, but I guess I would have wished for less soulless minions: On the one hand, I think I would have scoffed at the idea of them being be-souled by actual human souls via a similar process of body-snatching as the Family employed (because it would have meant stealing from the Cybermen eps), but at least I think the Hapless People Drawn Into The War Machine metaphor would've worked better....

Jenny being taken over was horrible, I agree -- actually, I think all the characters were nicely drawn, only that the villain part was overdone in my eyes. Subtlety is all I ask! & ;-) (But it's a lot.)

as the Doctor, he's not ready to fall in love right now, but he definitely has started to love Martha in the way he loves his companions, and post-Lazarus Experiment is open about wanting her around on a long term basis (for humans, not for him).

Yes, absolutely.

So, strictly speaking, when he says to Rose in School Reunion "you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend mine with you", he's lying.

Ahahah, this is easily refuted: As of Human Nature/Family of Blood, we know that THE DOCTOR cannot spend the rest of his life as a human, with a human (or any other creature): Some other man (or woman, or alien, or unspeakable creature) can spend the rest of her/his/? life in peace, but it won't be One-to-Ten. He cannot just change his skin --

'tis not a mask, it's as real as you and I, and it's a different person with only vague notions manifested in dreams and nightmares and brief flashes alone.

It's proven throughout the episode, but I just point you to the last scene especially, the last conversation between Joan and the Doctor, that we can, for all intents and purposes, consider John Smith a different person altogether: brave and proud but also a son of his time, different in not just manner, different just where it counts: He will, indeed, give up his life, he won't keep going because he knows it prevents disaster and mayhem.

The Doctor? Keeps going, knowing Joan's words are true, true, true: If you hadn't ever come, would anyone have died?

So, back to your original argument: No, the Doctor wasn't lying. He could have given Rose a man who looked like him...but it would have been a stranger.

And Rose loved him, the Doctor himself...unlike Joan, who loved John Smith.

(And yes, the Last Of The Timelords addendum rings all too true.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think I would have scoffed at the idea of them being be-souled by actual human souls via a similar process of body-snatching as the Family employed (because it would have meant stealing from the Cybermen eps),

Oh, body snatching doesn't need Cyberman in Who. Ye olde Beastie did it with the Ood and Toby to good effect in Impossible Planet, of course it happened back in The Empty Child, and when we go back to Old Who, well, vampires, zombies and bodysnatchers of all variations (including, of course, the Cybermen). I think - aside from the Scarecrow imagery - the reason why not more people were bodynatched was that then John Smith's hesitation would have looked incredibly callous instead of understandably scared. I.e. if we see him angst with Joan while the entire village is taken over, we can't empathize with the two of them, we want him to end it already.

we know that THE DOCTOR cannot spend the rest of his life as a human, with a human (or any other creature): Some other man (or woman, or alien, or unspeakable creature) can spend the rest of her/his/? life in peace, but it won't be One-to-Ten.

True, though we don't know whether the amnesia is inherent in the process or was used this time only because he needed to be convincing. For simplicity's sake, though, I prefer to believe that it can't be done without amnesia and fake memories as the member of whatever species he changes into. Also good point that Rose fell for him as the Doctor, not a human.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

of course it happened back in The Empty Child, and when we go back to Old Who, well, vampires, zombies and bodysnatchers of all variations (including, of course, the Cybermen)

Ah, I see. *nod*

the reason why not more people were bodynatched was that then John Smith's hesitation would have looked incredibly callous instead of understandably scared.

Which is very much what they were going for there, yes. Hmm. It still seems very, how shall I put it -- character-focused, not plot-focused, or rather, twisting the plot just so that it would fit our heroes' (?) actions.

I.e. if we see him angst with Joan while the entire village is taken over, we can't empathize with the two of them, we want him to end it already.

Yes, very true.

though we don't know whether the amnesia is inherent in the process or was used this time only because he needed to be convincing. For simplicity's sake, though, I prefer to believe that it can't be done without amnesia and fake memories as the member of whatever species he changes into.

*g* Your speculation is as valid as mine, but yes, what canon shows us is the safest bet.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I was talking to friends about the scarecrows this afternoon, and she made the point that they were less effective than they should have been, because their creepiness should have derived from "everyday objects turned lethal", but scarecrows aren't everyday objects any more, for most television viewers; the average child is more familiar with them as fairytale objects.

I'd thought about the chameleon device in connection with that speech too, though my conclusion was "Phew, he didn't want to turn Rose into a Time Lord." Though I'm sure somebody will tell me that was beyond its programming.

[kalpurna.livejournal.com]

I thought the crucial thing about the scarecrows was that they were "straw men", actually; that WWI, unlike WWII, was a meaningless war – that was its tragedy – and that all those boys had to go into battle to fight something that didn't really exist, didn't really matter. And of course, then you got that image of them blowing apart the bodies and crying, because even though the thing they were really fighting was meaningless, they had to kill so many people to do it. I thought this episode did a brilliant job of doing for WWI, that great tragedy of meaninglessness, what Empty Child/Doctor Dances did for WWII: show a small, painful slice of what that war meant to England. Just my two cents.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

"Straw men" of the imperialist powers whose greedy, senseless struggles these young men now had to battle over?

I like that. I first blinked at "meaningless war" because hey, not an unlucky coincidence; if it hadn't been Ferdinand, there would have been some other spark...but of course, you didn't say "without reason" but well, what you say above. Well analysed.

It ties in with what SelenaK says and what I recognised intellectually yet didn't, in my heart of hearts, *feel* during that scene. (The impact of EC/TDD was stronger, more powerful for me, but it focused on a different scenario at a different time in a different way.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I loved this two-parter so much. I'd hoped as much, considering that Father's Day is, if not my absolute favorite episode, incredibly close. The Doctor's ruthlessness does worry me, for his sake. He's so much darker and colder this season. So lost. It's good story-telling, though.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Doctor's ruthlessness does worry me, for his sake. He's so much darker and colder this season. So lost. It's good story-telling, though.

Which makes me even more sure about Mr. Saxon's identity, because this would be the best season for the Doctor to confront a dark mirror of himself, wouldn't it? As an emotional climax and resolution.

(I think the Diagoras and Solomon situation in the Dalek two parter could also be foreshadowing for this - both were WWI veterans, and the war had formed them, but the conclusions they drew were completely different...)

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I loved it too; loved it. I didn't even mind the "I love him to bits" because it was stated so matter-of-factly; Martha is strong.

I liked them showing Latimer at the end although I know one person who derided it as patriotic fervour. To me it shows that he got the long and presumably happy life Mr Smith didn't; how much things have changed for women - from being restricted to nurses and governesses at best to being pretty much anything including priests; and he got to see Ten and Martha again and knew that they too had survived.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It definitely didn't read as imperialistic to me; thinking of and commemorating the dead doesn't mean celebrating and condoning the war they died, and as you say, it was an opportunity to show the changes, to show Latimer did get the life Smith didn't, and to show him Ten and Martha, cross cut with the "shall not age" reference. A note of grace at the end.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

It was. Although I didn't cry like some did, I admit to getting misty-eyed there.

Latimer must have been around 104.

[owl]

Well, we don't know that that scene was from 2007. It could have been any time from when the CoE had women priests.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

True. So he'd be in his 90s?

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

Yup, this episode just pointed up how much Ten is like Seven, though with even less brakes. Seven was generally compassionate by manipulating people so their evil schemes backfired on them. Ten goes out and exacts punishment *himself*.

Joan was right that no one would have died if the Doctor hadn't come there -- at least no one in 1913. But whereever the Doctor went to hide, the Family would have followed, and they would have killed -- the Doctor's mistake was in thinking he could hide from them totally and the would not find him.

I think finding out you're not real would be horrible for ANYONE, but that John Smith found he was not real *and* had to die was tragedy on top of horror.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Ten and Seven and the exacting of punishment himself: post and pre Time War?

But whereever the Doctor went to hide, the Family would have followed, and they would have killed -- the Doctor's mistake was in thinking he could hide from them totally and the would not find him.

True. Though I wonder - did he encounter their species before, and if so, what happened? Or was he acting out of general knowledge (three months life span, blood hound tendency, etc.)?

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

*waves*

Hi! You don't know me, but - may I steal your icon? (It's the "travelers" one with Ace and Seven)

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

cesario made it. You should ask her.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

I loved these two episodes. Less for their creepiness - TEC/TDD was much creepier in my eyes, as was at least TIP (Satan's Pit, if still good was more of a "run away from the Alien" horror) - but for the way it catches the period and for the general tone, which is very melancholy, from knowing that yes, most of these kids will likely not outlive the next five years, to John dying and Joan losing him, to the family getting punished for all eternity. Even though it ends on a hopeful note with Timothy having lived the life John Smith couldn't have, I couldn't quite shake away the sadness. It's certainly not the kind of thoroughly happy ending TDD had, which probably fits the time period - and the WW this was concerned with - all the better.

I liked the family a lot, as far as villains go - I have a thing for gleeful insanity and slight overacting, so I was quite on board with Harry Lloyd's performance (although I did fear for his neck there, occasionally - he must have gotten cramps), and little girls with red balloons scare me, anyway. Like the head witch in TSC - whom I also loved, btw - they were very fairytale-like, which does make their gruesome endings rather fitting. (Incidentally, I find it interesting that you mention Neil Gaiman here, since the judging and punishing Doctor reminded me of Morpheus a lot. Although the latter would probably have foregone the hiding-out-of-mercy part)

Joan was also wonderful all around, with all her strengths and flaws, and I really felt for her in the end. The Doctor's suggestion that she could come with him in the end seemed awfully callous to me (especially if he did remember what it was like to be John Smith - did he? In that case, it would be an astonishing lack of empathy he shows here, definitely underlining his emotional distance and his profound otherness.), so I loved her response all the more.

Martha was also great, but given my fondness for her, that verdict is hardly surprising.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Even though it ends on a hopeful note with Timothy having lived the life John Smith couldn't have, I couldn't quite shake away the sadness. It's certainly not the kind of thoroughly happy ending TDD had, which probably fits the time period - and the WW this was concerned with - all the better.

That's what I was thinking, too. Especially taking into account that this is a British tv show, and how the English remember WWII and WWI respectively.

(Not comletely irrelevant sidenote: reading the poetry of Ted Hughs and Sylvia Plath, one of the many things that struck me was this English/American difference: to several of her poems, the WWII//Holocaust imagery is central (yet SP was a child then, safe in America), whereas in TH - who lived through WWII (also as a child) in England - it is not, WWI is. Very much so. It's also explosions versus lingering sadness, among many things.

Like the head witch in TSC - whom I also loved, btw - they were very fairytale-like, which does make their gruesome endings rather fitting.

Yes. The fairytale nature of the witches in TSC is why I had no problems with them, btw. That and the Macbethness of it all.*g*

Incidentally, I find it interesting that you mention Neil Gaiman here, since the judging and punishing Doctor reminded me of Morpheus a lot. Although the latter would probably have foregone the hiding-out-of-mercy part

Oh yes. Morpheus had to regenerate, err, become Daniel before being able to have mercy...

The Doctor's suggestion that she could come with him in the end seemed awfully callous to me (especially if he did remember what it was like to be John Smith - did he? In that case, it would be an astonishing lack of empathy he shows here, definitely underlining his emotional distance and his profound otherness.), so I loved her response all the more.

I think he remembered, but in the way he remembers having been his previous incarnations, too, i.e. there is some distance - for example obviously Six would remember how Five felt but acted completely differently in almost every situation.

Also, I thought his offer was because he did not want her to feel abandoned. Sarah Jane had impressed the importance of proper goodbyes to him, and while he was able to say goodbye to Rose, their parting wasn't of Rose's choice. I think he wanted to offer Joan a choice there. But yes, that was ignoring that to her, he was essentially the thing that had killed the man she loved, like a Jossverse vampire, wearing his body.

BTW neodods wrote a great Doctor pov on Joan ficlet, did you read it?

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(Not comletely irrelevant sidenote: reading the poetry of Ted Hughs and Sylvia Plath, one of the many things that struck me was this English/American difference: to several of her poems, the WWII//Holocaust imagery is central (yet SP was a child then, safe in America), whereas in TH - who lived through WWII (also as a child) in England - it is not, WWI is. Very much so. It's also explosions versus lingering sadness, among many things.

Very interesting; I'm not extremely familiar with either Plath or Hughes - I think I read one biography that was mostly concerned with her - so this is new territory for me. I have however had classes about American writers of the 20s and 30s and they were very decidedly influenced by their experiences as soldiers - this is how the whole Lost Generation phenomenon came to pass. I don't think it was as devastating as the the experience of the Europeans, seeing how late the Americans entered WW I, but it seems to have left quite an impact all the same.

Also, I thought his offer was because he did not want her to feel abandoned. Sarah Jane had impressed the importance of proper goodbyes to him, and while he was able to say goodbye to Rose, their parting wasn't of Rose's choice. I think he wanted to offer Joan a choice there.

I am sure he meant well - and Sarah Jane's admonition is a very good point - but he clearly didn't take into consideration that this wasn't the same situation at all, that she was in love with a man that wasn't him, and was hardly a part of him. I found it interesting because it seemed a very deliberate choice, to make him more distant - not the "lonely god" - that's him when he punishes the family - but still someone who has difficulty understanding more complex human emotions. (Of course, the relationship he has with his companions can't be helpful in this respect, because they usually continue liking him even if he does change considerably)

BTW neodods wrote a great Doctor pov on Joan ficlet, did you read it?

I will now; thanks for rec'ing!

Tarot of a timelord

[susan-who.livejournal.com]

it occurs to me what he gave them? the punishments were a timelords life, or possibly his life.
they will live forever and they will be alone.
Mirror - always on the outside of things observing
Scarecrow - being scary to keep the worst things away
Event Horizon - Things are being destroyed all around you and you can do nothing to stop it, and it HURTS.
Chains- Cannot escape one's duty? Cannot change?
...ok it's not a perfect theory