Lost 4.06 The Other Woman

[selenak]

First of all, I must rant a little. Why oh why did they have to make Juliet lose serious cool points by behaving all Gothic heroine harassed by Gothic villain flying in the arms of Gothic hero in that last scene with Jack? I mean, I actually don't have anything against the Jack/Juliet 'ship which has been signalled since early s3, considering Jack got a bit more interesting when interacting with Juliet and it is one of the things ending the most boring triangle this side of that geometric shape on BSG, but not like this. "He thinks I'm his and he knows how I feel about you?" Oh, please. DO NOT WANT. Do not destroy an intriguing female character on this show by making her act like this. Grrrrr. Argggghhh.

Mind you, that Ben has feelings for Juliet isn't exactly a surprise, considering his distinct lack of a lethal retaliation for her trying to kill him a couple of times, which otherwise is somewhat atypical for Ben. And that backstory bit makes sense, too. (And yet more proof that Juliet's taste in men is lousy. In addition to Edmund the jerk she's been married to, there was Goedwin who was nice enough in his manner but apparantly hitting on every woman he got close to, considering he had sex with Ana Lucia as well. And now Jack. 'Nuff said.) But seriously, Juliet, the same Juliet who cooly blackmailed Jack (well, tried to) into killing Ben mid-operation last season going "omg Ben is going to get every man I ever loved killed what SHOULD I DO?!?"

Thankfully, we got the Ben and Locke scenes in the C-plot. Now THAT is how you write a relationship. I can't help but notice that Drew Goddard has a theme of meal-sharing (with Locke doing the preparation) between those two while they spar; see The Man from Tallahasee. (It's been a while since s2, so I suppose it could have started back when Ben was Henry Gale and Locke brought him dinner then, too.) I was a bit afraid that they'd make Ben too easily superior and the winner, but they did let Locke get one zinger in in the form of the exact sum of money Miles wants, which evidently came as a surprise to Ben. As to what Ben told and showed Locke, it's probably true. We certainly had ample foreshadowing of Charles Widmore being at least involved, and given the fact Naomi had the Desmond/Penny photo, he almost HAD to be the one financing the boat. Methinks he also has to have Dharma connections, given he knew what Ben did to all the Dharma staff a few years back. And I think now it's certain who Ben's spy among Widmore's people has to be. Given that it's someone Locke knows and whose presence is supposed to surprise him, it has to be Michael. Which probably means that Walt is around as well (with the different time factor between the island and the land used as an excuse for the actor's aging), which interestingly enough means the Walt vision Locke saw when he was bleeding in the mass grave might not have been a projection of the island after all, but could have been actual Walt. Hmmmm.

Comments

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

"He thinks I'm his and he knows how I feel about you?" Oh, please. DO NOT WANT. Yeah, no sh*t. That annoyed me a bunch. Not the least because I feel like it's the only Juliet/Jack moment since these two showed up on screen together that didn't ring resoundingly true to me.

Ooooh, Michael as the spy. I had no clue, but I feel certain you are right.

Ben is always awesome, and Locke & Ben conversations are especially awesome.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

As I said, I had no problem with Jack/Juliet before because she was always strong in their interaction, so I could not believe my eyes and ears when they had her behave like this. May it be a one time only occurence.

Michael as the spy: it HAS to be someone both Ben and Locke know, and whom Locke would not expect to be on the boat. (And who hasn't been on the island for at least some weeks.) Their circle of common aquaintances is somewhat short. Also, Perrineau was in the credits in those first episodes without being on screen.

[counteragent.livejournal.com]

You are so right.

[mermaidrain.livejournal.com]

Oh! Interesting idea on the Walt/Micheal front. I hadn't thought of that.

And I liked the moment Jack and Juliet met outside of the hatch (or whatever it was) simply because again, Jack got to step away from being whiny and kissed Juliet with flare. (But then, my weakness for manly decisive kissing like that might have something to do with that too. LOL!) Yeah, I agree they were screwing around with Juliet's character, but I think it had to be done to get the (more creepy) backstory on Ben. Which EEP! They really are giving him layers this season.

And as for the Locke/Ben dinner and the truth of what Ben revealed, I still go with my initial reaction. I think it's all half-truths. I think Ben was showing him the real stuff, but the way he was telling Lock about it was a bit screwy. I mean, come on, he played RIGHT to Locke's ego. Penny's dad wants the island because OMG look at what happened to YOU! Your magical healing must be why he is so desperate to get this island. And I like the fact (if it is a fact and not a game) that Ben doesn't know everything in this scenario (like HOW Penny's father found out about the island).

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

"omg Ben is going to get every man I ever loved killed what SHOULD I DO?!?"

It's a somewhat inappropriate reaction, but the first thing I thought when reading this sentence was "Start dating Sayid, your curses might cancel each other out."

More seriously, I wasn't too fond of Juliet's weepiness in that situation, although on a general level I'm really not surprised her relationship behaviour is somewhat screwed up, given Edmund. I simply don't like that this specific crisis is caused by Ben being possessive, and not by her own flaws. (Stalky Ben, however, I can totally buy. Even if they went overboard with "YOU'RE MINE." It must have taken Michael Emerson a lot of willpower not to twirl that mustache.)

Charles Widmore: I wasn't surprised (well -it is Alan Dale, so he obviously has to be evil, and he recently quit Ugly Betty, so he would be available to be a bigger bad at least for a while), except for his rather hands-on approach with thie informant - you just know Mr. Paik would have used Jin for stuff like that. But I would really love to know what Ben didn't tell Locke and what he left out of that file.

Ben's spy: it just has to be Michael, I don't think they would have made HP a regular again for a flashback appearance.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

If I had my way, the phrase "you're mine" or "he thinks I'm his" or variations thereof would be forbidden to be used on any show or fanfic. (Backstory: a few years ago at Theatrical_Muse, there was a Wesley and a Methos who had a relationship with each other, which was all well, except that exclamations of "MINE!" were all over the place, and those always made me snigger and roll my eyes.) But anyway, yes, Ben is the stalking type, but it worked far better when Emerson was allowed to say matter of factly "take your time" (re: Goodwin's corpse) - now that was chilling and possessive and what not because of the utter certainty he had of what this would do to her) than when given Gothic text to say.

It's a somewhat inappropriate reaction, but the first thing I thought when reading this sentence was "Start dating Sayid, your curses might cancel each other out."

LOL. Well, she might, in the future when Sayid is working for Ben and assassinating people.*veg*

except for his rather hands-on approach with thie informant - you just know Mr. Paik would have used Jin for stuff like that.

Naturally. But then, Charles Widmore got his jollies out of humiliating Desmond in the men's room instead of making D. work for him as a thug; clearly Mr. Paik is better at long term son in law torture, though probably not at overall Evil Overlordism.

Alan Dale: don't forget, he also made a quick trip back home to the UK in order to shoot Owen and torture Martha!

But I would really love to know what Ben didn't tell Locke and what he left out of that file.

Well, for starters, he didn't tell him about the Boaties wanting to disable not use the gas storage. Though otoh, given last season's The Man Behind the Curtain, Locke is actually the only one other than Ben and the Boaties - oh, and Richard Halpert, of course - who knows Ben was responsible or co-responsible for that past massacre. I forgot Ben's exact phrasing when he showed Locke the mass grave and shot him, but I think it involved an admission of sorts, something like "I made sure not end up here with them, as opposed to you, John", *bang*, "what did Jacob tell you?".

Other not told things: I actually think that Widmore IS interested in the island's healing abilities - not so much in the island healing Locke, though that's certainly one of the most radical examples, but Rose would be another one - they're immensely valuable to any evil overlord, after all. But presumably there are other things he wants to have the island for. That time distortion maybe? And Ben kept quiet about that one. Also, we still don't know how come Anthony Cooper ended up on the island. Timeline wise, it would be possible that Ben checked the passenger files on the day of the crash, said "hm, that Cooper fellow has a connection to not one but two passengers by having screwed them over in the past, best abduct him and bring him here" and have a minion do just said via submarine, but I don't think so.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(Backstory: a few years ago at Theatrical_Muse, there was a Wesley and a Methos who had a relationship with each other, which was all well, except that exclamations of "MINE!" were all over the place, and those always made me snigger and roll my eyes.)

Especially considering that in Ben's case it was at least meant to be creepy...

LOL. Well, she might, in the future when Sayid is working for Ben and assassinating people.*veg*

Who knows. I think they would have made a really good couple, but I have to give it to Naveen Andrews: on the island, Shannon has been dead for like two months, and it would seem a bit inappropriate if Sayid just jumped in with the next woman.

clearly Mr. Paik is better at long term son in law torture, though probably not at overall Evil Overlordism.

I guess Mr. Paik is both more practical and a little more clear-headed where his daughter is concerned. Additionally, Desmond is a bit too flakey to really make a good thug. But I guess he can consider himself lucky that Mr. W. thought it sufficient to just humiliate him and not make him disappear. Well, permanently, anyway. (I do not believe Widmore is actually behind Des ending up on the island, but the idea that he may have gone to that length only to get rid of one of Penny's boyfriends admittedly cracks me up.)

Alan Dale: don't forget, he also made a quick trip back home to the UK in order to shoot Owen and torture Martha!

And over on Ugly Betty he once had someone buried alive (they retconned it later, as it was probably thought to be a little too far out, but still...). I wonder if he sometimes just wants to play a kind uncle or something...*g*

I forgot Ben's exact phrasing when he showed Locke the mass grave and shot him, but I think it involved an admission of sorts, something like "I made sure not end up here with them, as opposed to you, John", *bang*, "what did Jacob tell you?".

I don't remember exactly - I was too busy shouting "No, Locke, don't go into the jungle with Ben!" at my screen at that point - but Locke should have clued in that something had gone badly wrong with the Dharma employees. Of course, he could have suspected that Ben just defected instead of actively participating.

I actually think that Widmore IS interested in the island's healing abilities - not so much in the island healing Locke, though that's certainly one of the most radical examples, but Rose would be another one - they're immensely valuable to any evil overlord, after all.

I do think Widmore's business has something to do with health, actually. It is mentioned in some capacity in Not In Portland, and some eagle-eyed viewers spotted that pregnancy tests used by Sun and I think Kate were produced by Widmore. I agree that the unique time zone of the island should be important, too - just consider the possibilities if they manage to harness it for wider scale time travel somehow. I doubt Dan was send to the island for his ability to shut down computers despite massive distraction, I suspect it has something to do with his time research in the 90s.

Anthony Cooper: just how many days passed between the crash and TMFT? I did think they actually caught him in that episode, and until then, Ben should have had enough time to find out about his connection to both Locke and Sawyer, shouldn't he? I just imagine that Ben has a massive network of people working for him off the island. There was the company which hired Juliet, for one, and the Looking Glass guards mentioned commissions off the island in the third season finale.


Something not concerned with Lost: Adrian Pasdar was/is on a Con in Florida, and he gave a pretty enlightening Q&A. There are spoilers for Season 3, and there is some stuff about decisions the PTB made about Season 2 that might make your blood boil, but I thought it very fascinating to read nonetheless:
http://community.livejournal.com/vote_petrelli/100070.html#cutid1

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Especially considering that in Ben's case it was at least meant to be creepy...

Quite. Incidentally, I found an explanation for Ben's lapse into sounding like bad fanfic with that sentence: clearly, growing up on that island with the Dharma folk and Richard H. in the woods meant he got his relationship education via the bodice ripper novels Annie lent him...

I guess Mr. Paik is both more practical and a little more clear-headed where his daughter is concerned. Additionally, Desmond is a bit too flakey to really make a good thug.

And now I want someone to write the story where Paik and Widmore meet and, err, exchange views on their daughters' significant others and how to handle them!

Of course, come to think of it, we have Ben as a third qualified party in such a conversation. If, you know, he and Widmore didn't want to kill each other. Since Ben's method of dealing with his daughter's boyfriend seems to be keeping said boyfriend in a cage and/or brainwash him with really bad music...

Florida con stuff: so I take it we were deprived of a Petrelli family scene which would have further explained why Heidi left Nathan in favour of the Telenovela in various South American states? *sigh*

Anyway, I imagine the "vest" hint makes you happy on account of a set-up being your favourite theory, right?

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, I found an explanation for Ben's lapse into sounding like bad fanfic with that sentence: clearly, growing up on that island with the Dharma folk and Richard H. in the woods meant he got his relationship education via the bodice ripper novels Annie lent him...

That would make a lot of sense! Although he probably also watched lots of wholesome family shows, courtesy of Dharma - thus the more than vaguely creepy "I made dinner for you!" situation. (Have I mentioned I really liked Ben in this episode? He is just terrifically entertaining. And he would have actually been pretty adorable here, if it hadn't been Ben.)

And now I want someone to write the story where Paik and Widmore meet and, err, exchange views on their daughters' significant others and how to handle them!

Of course, come to think of it, we have Ben as a third qualified party in such a conversation. If, you know, he and Widmore didn't want to kill each other. Since Ben's method of dealing with his daughter's boyfriend seems to be keeping said boyfriend in a cage and/or brainwash him with really bad music...

It could be a black comedy version of that John Ritter show, 8 Simple Rules for Dating my Daughter...

so I take it we were deprived of a Petrelli family scene which would have further explained why Heidi left Nathan in favour of the Telenovela in various South American states? *sigh*

Oh, yes. I feel the more I hear about the editing process of Season Two, the more I really dislike the twins' storyline. And the way it was phrased, it certainly didn't seem like this was the only Nathan stuff that got cut. I don't want to think too deeply about there probably having been more of Nathan & Matt that was thrown out for Southern American Antics with Sylar.

Anyway, I imagine the "vest" hint makes you happy on account of a set-up being your favourite theory, right?

*g* It does, although it is less about me being right, I swear. I feel like a bad fan for this, but I would have felt worse about Nathan getting injured as a result of OOC stupidity than Nathan actually dying for in character reasons.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Although he probably also watched lots of wholesome family shows, courtesy of Dharma - thus the more than vaguely creepy "I made dinner for you!" situation.

This reminded me of another villain, actually. Mayor Wilkins of Sunnydale as Ben's grandfather on the maternal side: discuss? Because yes, of course. And your idea that Young!Ben looked like Harry Potter fits right in.

It could be a black comedy version of that John Ritter show, 8 Simple Rules for Dating my Daughter...

Clearly, I must post a poll. Also, have you ever read a very funny story about Weiss in s4 when it dawns on him he's dating the daughter of A Very Bad Man and thinks even Vaughn has it easier with Jack Bristow? If not, I'll give you the link.

I feel like a bad fan for this, but I would have felt worse about Nathan getting injured as a result of OOC stupidity than Nathan actually dying for in character reasons.

Oh, I know what you mean. What riled me most about the way Alias ended for both Irina and Sloane wasn't either of them going bad again as such but in Irina's case the sudden desire to nuke Washington for profit (huh?) and in Sloane's case the use of glass table ex machina (at least the show bothered to make it clear he could care less about what happened to the nukes and Irina and Sark were welcome to them) when as we've said the same result with a much stronger story would have been achieved had Nadia died in the fallout of the s4 finale.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Also, have you ever read a very funny story about Weiss in s4 when it dawns on him he's dating the daughter of A Very Bad Man and thinks even Vaughn has it easier with Jack Bristow?

Yes, I did! Very appropriate story. Poor Weiss. *g*

Agree about the Alias ending in terms of both Irina and Sloane. In fact, I had completely suppressed the nukes element...