*facepalm*

[selenak]

Or, what happens when you realize you've become possessive over fictional people and their fictional sex lives despite best intentions!

So, this month crack_van, after YEARS, does Babylon 5 recs again. Which makes me happy. Now today I check and find a story recommended with a summary that reads: This story starts off with Londo being an ass, which is perfectly believable and has Sheridan and Sinclair enlisting the help of their friends to get back at him. This story is funny, has fun characterization, and is also totally hot. The Centauri apparently have an incredibly strong taboo against same-sex couples, so Sheridan and Sinclair decide to play a practical joke on him by pretending to be a couple.

My first thought wasn't "how come Sinclair and Sheridan are on the station at the same time"?, oh no. It was "the Centauri don't have an incredible strong taboo against same-sex couples because I would know about that by virtue of having written more Centauri fanfic than anyone safe hobsonphile. Also, Londo in particular had sex with his best friend in his teenage years." And we all know he's destined to figure out his feelings for G'Kar.

And then I realized. I have become THAT kind of fan. The one who insists on treating her fanon as canon. Great Maker, I feel so embarassed.

But I still think Londo would find a Sinclair/Sheridan tryst hilarious and definitely wouldn't be shocked. And that the Centauri in general due to being obviously modelled on the Romans by JMS probably have the Roman attitude towards same-sex relationships, patriarchal but not tied to religious taboos, to wit: post-adolescence, it's all about the power hierarchy. If you are on the receiving end, as it were (well, the equivalent for Centauri anatomy), you admit to a lower status. True for either gender.

Now excuse me. I'm going to write down "JMS did not in any way sell the Centauri to me" a hundred times.

Comments

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

And then I realized. I have become THAT kind of fan. The one who insists on treating her fanon as canon. Great Maker, I feel so embarassed.

Is it bad that I giggled?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Pffff. What, just because I have rolled my eyes once or twice before? Did I ever demand that people accept Arvin is out of that cave as canon, huh, did I? No, I nobly restrained myself. BUT WHERE LONDO AND THE CENTAURI ARE CONCERNED I JUST KNOW...

*goes back to writing "JMS did not sell me Londo and the Centauri"*

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I just generally find the "I, the author, am going to demonstrate how enlightened/deliciously naughty I am by having some character be shocked, shocked! by a gay couple for your amusement" sort of story almost unbearably tedious.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, that, too, though to be fair, I haven't read the actual story, so the summary on crack_van might be misleading.

But in the B5verse gay marriage among humans is canonically regarded as normal, and Londo spent years on Earth pre-show among the diplomatic staff, so even if the Centauri - who btw worship deities with attributes of both sexes so why... argh, I'm doing it again!

[leyenn.livejournal.com]

I know which story it is without even looking and no, it's not misleading at all. The Londo voice and the setup is probably more than slightly out in today's fandom (I haven't read it in ages), but that particular story is, from my memory, fucking smoking hot enough that I can forgive the deux ex machina.

It's also one of my teenage fandom memories, so I'm a little love-blind over it whatever its faults. ;)

[lizblackdog.livejournal.com]

i giggled too. But I also agree with you; it strikes me as unbelievably out of character for Londo to find anything like that shocking.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Londo Mollari, of all the people!

*goes back to writing "I do not own Londo; I do not own the Centauri*

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

And then I realized. I have become THAT kind of fan. The one who insists on treating her fanon as canon. Great Maker, I feel so embarassed.

Apparently, it happens to the best of us. :D

If it's any consolation, I wouldn't believe for a second that Londo, or Centauri society in general, has problem with same sex couples. The only B5 aliens I could halfway imagine having a taboo like that would be the Minbari - the Narn certainly wouldn't, being Samurai and all - and even with them I would suspect lines going more along caste barriers than gender ones.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Agreed on the Minbari being more likely to have caste then gender relatead taboos. (Then again, I might be influenced by deborah_judge's Minbari stories; there's one about Lennier's quest for redemption featuring a Lesbian Minbari couple in supporting roles.) Re: Narn - in addition to the Samurai factor, the Narn do canon mpreg, which probably would influence gender perceptions and taboos or lack of same...

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that even if you don't write Centauri slash or read Londo as gay, it's out of character for him to be shocked by anything consenting adults could get up to. And while there's no unambiguous canon evidence either way as to whether the Centauri have a problem with homosexuality, the hermaphroditic goddess of love strikes against it. (It just struck me, the fact that the Centauri love deity is hermaphroditic but referred to as a "goddess" is probably a major piece of evidence about their philosophical attitudes to sex and gender that deserves deep analysis.)

[ruuger]

Hee :)

If it makes you feel any better, Londo being shocked by a same sex couple is rather unbelievable IMO as well. To be honest, I find it rather unbelievable for anyone in the B5 universe to be shocked by a same sex couple...

The fic summary sounds awfully familiar, though... I think I might have actually read that fic.

[ruuger]

Whoa! I just checked out crack_van and no wonder the summary sounded familiar - it's "Balance of Power". That's a real classic of B5 slash, and the first slash fic I ever read in any fandom.

...though concidering the summary, and the fact that when I randomly skimmed the fic I came across a sex scene that included the word "SinclaaaiiiirrrrraaaAAUUUGGGHHH!", I'm starting to think that there are some classics that should not be revisited, not even for nostalgia's sake...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I find it rather unbelievable for anyone in the B5 universe to be shocked by a same sex couple...

Me too, given that same-sex marriage for humans is canonically legal, and the other races don't strike of having this particular taboo, either. But if the summary had read "Lennier is shocked" etc., I would not have had any reaction beyond "sounds like a very early s2 setting" and "oh, THAT plot device" and moved on. Whereas apparantly bringing up Londo and the Centauri made me realize my inner crazedly possessive fangirl.*g*

[callmesandy.livejournal.com]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeee! I feel this way so often, I salute your courage for admitting it. :)

[kathyh]

And then I realized. I have become THAT kind of fan. The one who insists on treating her fanon as canon. Great Maker, I feel so embarassed.

Bwahahaha...colour me highly amused. I must admit that summary would have made me go "huh" and I don't have your hotline to a certain Centauri.

[andraste]

Predictably, I had exactly the same reaction. We can be sisters in Centauri possessiveness!

Also, even if the Cetauri did have such a taboo, Londo is obviously good at coping with bizarre human practices - like letting women wear pants and run space stations.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

They are ours, and anyone giving them random taboos better consult us first.*g*

Londo is obviously good at coping with bizarre human practices - like letting women wear pants and run space stations.

Good point. Yes, his Centauri patriarchism does not appear to touch on how he relates to Ivanova or Lochley at all. Or Delenn, for that matter.

Incidentally: when Franklin says in Soul Mates after Londo made a comment about his wives: "Ambassador, may I offer a word of personal advice?" and after Londo nodded: "Stick it", Londo replies: "Funny, I didn't know we were married". Not only is this a joke on his own expense but definitely doesn't sound like one by someone who has a hang-up on same-sex relationships.

...and it's still embarassing that I bother to bring this up in the first place!

[andraste]

They are ours, and anyone giving them random taboos better consult us first.*g*

*snuggles Centauri*

Good point. Yes, his Centauri patriarchism does not appear to touch on how he relates to Ivanova or Lochley at all. Or Delenn, for that matter.

Indeed. For all his Centauri traditionalism, Londo is in some ways incredibly unbiased about these things - he seems able to accept that aliens do things in alien ways. It's one he's actually very good at his job, when he's not making ill-advised deals with the devil or glued to the gambling table.

Not only is this a joke on his own expense but definitely doesn't sound like one by someone who has a hang-up on same-sex relationships.

Quite! Not to mention that in Born to the Purple he remarks that he would be willing to seal the Euphrates Treaty with a kiss, and Sinclair replies that this would make G'Kar's day *g*.

...and it's still embarassing that I bother to bring this up in the first place!

We shall all be embarrassed together *g*.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

For all his Centauri traditionalism, Londo is in some ways incredibly unbiased about these things - he seems able to accept that aliens do things in alien ways. It's one he's actually very good at his job, when he's not making ill-advised deals with the devil or glued to the gambling table.

Undoubtedly, Londo would comment that his time at the gambling table was often way more productive than the first season shouting matches with G'Kar in the council chamber.*g* But, yes. You can see why he was first in the diplomatic staff on Earth and then promoted to ambassador for B5, and it wasn't just because no one else wanted the job - he's good at politics, diplomacy, and interaction with other cultures, and not in small part because even when he's full of bluster about something - like, say, the confiscation of his brivari - he conveys the impression that he enjoys the company of other people. Which is a useful quality for a diplomat to have.

Not to mention that in Born to the Purple he remarks that he would be willing to seal the Euphrates Treaty with a kiss, and Sinclair replies that this would make G'Kar's day *g*.

Sinclair always struck me as an insightful man, especially about those two.*g* (He gets to make all the married jokes, after all!)

[elyssadc.livejournal.com]

I think it's pretty scary that I haven't read B5 fic in like...10 years but I think I know EXACTLY what story that is. And it was always one of my favorites. The Londo stuff is so not even the point of the story and the Sheridan/Sinclair/Delenn sex was so fucking hot to me. Granted, B5 was my first ever online fandom and I didn't have much experience with the pr0n prior to that, but still. It made a very lasting impression. However, I guess this is all irrelevant cause I don't think that was the point of your post. And now that I think about it, I agree. The Centauri would be far more Roman. But still...hot threesome more than makes up for the weak plot device.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was pretty sure when reading the summary that Londo probably just shows up in the first two paragraphs; I dimly recalled the author as Sinclair-Delenn centric from the old days. But it's of course what I fixated upon, given that my, err, perspective on B5 is pretty much the one Andraste gives here (http://www.altogetherelsewhere.net/blueshades/babylon5fanfiction.html):

Babylon 5 is an epic love story about two alien ambassadors and the conflict between them, both political and personal. The main supporting cast consists of various members of their two species, most notably an angel in Centauri form called Vir Cotto, as well as the odd Vorlon and some telepaths. Or, at least, this is the impression you'd probably get from reading my fanfic.

Which is to say: no incentive to read Sinclair/Sheridan due to lack of interest. I mean, I like Sinclair, and Delenn, and Sheridan, but I've never been compelled to seek out fanfic about them. (Well, correction: I've read deborah_judge's and eye_of_a_cat's Minbari stories, which usually feature both Lennier and Delenn, and are fab.) Wheraes I spent ten years bemoaning the lack of Londo/G'Kar and fanfic exploring the Centauri characters in general until I finally got off my backside and started writing it myself, and then andrastewhite and hobsonphile joined the effort. You wouldn't figure out Sheridan or, say, Marcus Cole were even regulars on the show from their nearly non-appearance in our fic.*g*

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Hee! Although I don't think of "fanon" as logical extrapolations from canonical facts; I think of fanon as stuff like "when Sloane was a child his pet cat died and that's why he's such a bastard" or, more realistically, "Faith was sexually abused/exploited before she turned up in Sunnydale."

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the ever popular "Buffy smells like vanilla". *g*

But anyway, the truth is that of course we didn't get anything definite on what the Centauri might think of same-sex relationships. We can make educated guesses based on what we have in canon, which is what I did, but I do that with other people in other fandoms as well and still don't feel possessive when coming across fanfic that goes directly against what I believe to be true. I mean, I think "no way", of course, but then I move on instead of posting about it instead of still inwardly arguing. Must be something about the Centauri!

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

B5 is on my Netflix queue, so at some point in the relatively near future I will know what you are talking about. *g*

[hobsonphile.livejournal.com]

Heeee!

I'll have to echo andrastewhite here, because yes, I also had the exact same reaction. At least we can be that kind of fan together. ;)

(And actually, I think you've written more Centauri fic than I - at least if you go by general word count. ;))

[selenak.livejournal.com]

We can, we can; and I knew you two would understand.*g*

[ryosato.livejournal.com]

"And then I realized. I have become THAT kind of fan. The one who insists on treating her fanon as canon. Great Maker, I feel so embarassed."

...But... but... fanon? What is this fanon you speak of?? I thought that WAS canon!!!

teheh... maybe I'm that kind of fan, after all... >_>

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I know!!!