My Best Enemy

[selenak]

So, I wonder, what is it that makes friends-turned-enemies pairings to appealing to me? (Brought on but not limited to having been on a Doctor/Master trip lately, but it's really a multifandom affair.) It does seem to work for me in many a fandom, after all. So, common factors between quite different characters in quite different universes:



1) a) The (positive) history. This is pretty crucial and the key difference to simple enemy pairings. I don't think I would have been as interested if, say, Charles Xavier had never met Erik Lehnsherr before Magneto started to clash with the X-Men. Or if the Master had been just Random Evil Time Lord. (Point in case: the War Chief, who turned up in the Second Doctor adventure The War Games and holds the distinction of being the very first evil Time Lord on the show. In some ways, he's a proto-Master - renegade, check, black beard, check, has his allies turn against him in last third of adventure, check. And he's not dull, either. But he and the Doctor don't know each other. There are no personal stakes here at all.) Or if Irina Derevko had never seen Jack Bristow before season 2, to bring up a rare m/f example, or if Arvin Sloane and Jack Bristow had never worked with each other before SD-6. But if you have two people who once upon a time didn't just get along splendidly but meant a great deal to each other, who shared positive experiences by the dozens, then the contrast to the current situation isn't just dramatic, it's good for many things. Regret. Anger. Unexpected returning moments of comraderie in the middle of enmity. A good excuse not to kill each other at sight when that would be more helpful to one's goals. Fondness along with the current enmity. And lots and lots and LOTS of backstory to explore (very useful for fanfic). (Such a history, btw, pretty much demands that the characters in question aren't youngsters anymore, which means they're rarely the leads of their shows/movies by the laws of modern tv and film. Pity.) When the canon in question gives you "do you remember" or "wait, for a moment I forgot we now..." moments, it's practically guaranteed to make me squee, or melt, as the case might be. Take Irina and Jack bringing up the toaster incident from their married life in Alias, and the shared smile before Jack recollects this isn't his wife but Evil Former KGB spy (tm). That chess game at the end of X1, if we take movie! Charles and Erik, or the panel from God Loves, Man Kills where their hands almost touch after Magneto asks Xavier to join him and Xavier almost does in the comics. The Doctor looking all of twelve (despite being currently in a 50something body and of course many centuries old) when he talks about experiments at school with the Master in The Time Monster.


1 b) The (negative) history. But obviously, something happened. In all cases. Sometimes canon spells it out, as in Alias, with both Irina and Arvin in relations to Jack. Sometimes canon deliberately leaves it as a mystery, as with the Doctor and the Master. (40 years of tv canon, and we don't know when that friendship turned sour and the Master went Evil Overlord. There are various contradictory explanations in the books and audios, but I doubt we'll ever get one on screen.) Sometimes it's easy to guess the essentials, but the details are vague (movie Xavier and Magneto; the various comics universes do offer details). And sometimes it actually happens while we watch/read. I must admit that what got me interested in Tony Stark/Iron Man, other than likeadeuce writing intriguing stories and roleplay, were parts of the übercontroversial Civil War storyline Marvel did last year. Friends falling out over a matter of principle/ideology/belief/whatever you want to call it is interesting and emotionally gripping if done right, and at least some of those Marvel writers did it right. Between Christos Gage with Rubicon and Brian Bendis writing The Confession, my fate as a Steve Rogers/ Tony Stark shipper was sealed. Now, had I first encountered these characters in their decades of backstory when they were getting along fine, I doubt that would have happened. (On the other hand, I might have caught one of those issues dealing with earlier arguments. Anyway.) Whatever happened/happens that turns best friends into enemies, it tends to have emotional repercussions for the rest of their lives, and it usually is nicely complicated and layered and makes it impossible for these people ever to have a simple, issues-free relationship again. And I love complicated relationships.

2) Conversations, conversations, conversations. Friends-turned-enemies usually have great exchanges in canon, and fanfic builds on that and comes up with a lot more. If you now the other person so well, in the good and bad sense, then you know exactly how to get under each other's skin. Which can be used for good arguments as well as the occasional comforting moment. And I'm a dialogue fiend. I just love it when the characters I'm interested in can convey a lot both with the spoken and the subtext in their diaologue. Some choice examples from canon and fanfiction:

From Alias, season 3, Breaking Point:

JACK: I’ve been trying to think of a single reason why you saved my life… The only conclusion I’ve come to is that it would incur some feeling of debt on my part.

SLOANE: As usual, Jack, you’re in danger or outsmarting yourself.

And from After Six, same season (s3 is so not my favourite season, but it has some great Jack 'n Arvin moments):

JACK: I wanted to speak with you regarding the Lisenker defection. Any word on how the Covenant is taking it?
SLOANE: Tell me, Jack, is that why you came to see me?
JACK: About last week... it was a matter of circumstance, Arvin. Whether I would have gone through with it...
SLOANE: Oh, you would've. I would've.
JACK: Perhaps.
SLOANE: And now you feel guilty. Well don't bother, Jack.

*looooong look at each other*


From one of my absolutely favourite Xavier/Magneto stories, penknife's Travel Advisory:

"What are you doing here?" Erik said, mildly irritated. "Don't you have a jet?"

"It's a little conspicious for daily use," Charles said. "Especially now. Don't you have a helicopter?"

"Pyro is using it."

"Leaving you stranded in an airport with no way to get back to your secret hideout."

"You already know where it is," Erik said. "Don't you?"

Charles shrugged and took another sip of gin-and-hypothetically-tonic.

"If I did, I'd be obligated to report it to the authorities," he said. "So it's just as well for you that it's a secret, isn't it?"


From aralias The Meaning of Forgiveness:

The Master nods and takes a large gulp of scotch. “Mine then,” he says. “Good to know.” He pauses, drinks again and then says: “why is it that you’re so annoying? Please, tell me. Do you find the bed uncomfortable? Or did you sleep badly last night? Anybody else would have taken the drink and shut up.” His fingers have begun to tap rhythmically against the side of the glass.

“Master,” the Doctor says, not unkindly. “You stole my TARDIS, trapped me at the end of the universe, took over the earth, tortured my friends, killed literally billions of people, made me old then made me young, both of which were unbelievably painful by the way, and now I’m five and you want us to drink together and talk about old times. I’m a genius, but even I don’t quite understand why you think I might say yes. Right now, I wouldn’t believe you if you told me my name, though you’re the only person still alive who knows it. Which… is my problem. I want to trust you, because you’re the only person still alive who knows my name, but I can’t and I won’t and I don’t drink with people I don’t trust. If you do, you risk waking up naked in the Ritz in 1993 where a very nice man named Nigel, who works there apparently, will tell you that you owe two thousand pounds in damages which you can choose to pay by cheque or credit card. That,” he says thoughtfully, “was not a good night. I think.”

The Master laughs slightly and the tapping fades. The Doctor says: “Besides, I’m five and it’s still illegal for me to drink on most systems. If you remember, that part’s your fault.”

“We were friends when you were this old,” the Master says. “The first time round anyway. Do you remember?”

“No,” the Doctor says. “Because we didn’t meet until I was eight.”

“I could age you up a few years, if you like,” the Master offers. He reaches round to his jacket pocket and removes the laser screwdriver. He holds it out as if measuring the Doctor against it. “Three years - might not even hurt.”

“No, thank you.”

“Then don’t be so pedantic,” the Master says. The hand gripping the scotch glass is white with tension. “I’m a well known maniac, I might just freak out any minute and kill everyone, and you’re actually taunting me. Three years, who cares?”

“We’re Time Lords,” the Doctor says, shifting on the bed until he’s sitting cross-legged. “You know as well as I do that time matters. Three years, matters, course it does. Think what could happen in three years! Anything. I was eight and you were nine. You had that ridiculous Beatles haircut, if I remember rightly.”

“Well, you can talk,” the Master says, wearily. “Didn’t you second regeneration wear his hair in almost exactly the same style?”

“Well, yes,” the Doctor says. “But the Beatles were cool by then.”


3) The Equality Factor. See, one of my severe anti-kinks is an imbalance in power in a relationship. (Which is, among other reasons, why I don't like sexual mentor/student relationships.) Best friends turned enemies, on the other hand, tend to be written and played as equals, in intelligence, age and general ability. (The equality factor is also why I'm on the fence of including Angel and Spike here, though it's a pairing I like, and it shares certainly some of the traits I listed. But pre-Destiny in s5 of Angel, there is a severe power imbalance in Angel's favour, and even after, I'd say it's definitely a case of Angel being the alpha. Angel and Darla, on the other hand, are equals - and if anything, a power imbalance is in Darla's favour - , but at no stage in their centuries together, no matter which one of them has a soul, are they friends, whereas I think Spike and Angel get there in s5.) These people tend to challenge each other in a way no one else in their lives does. This, btw, does not mean the other people in their lives aren't better for them. In the X-Men movieverse, for example, if we exclude X3 (booh! hiss!) I'd say Mystique and Magneto definitely make a healthier couple than Magneto and Xavier. They agree ideologically, and Mystique is the best Trusted Lieutenant ever. Wereas even if Xavier and Magneto were to reunite, they probably would manage only a few days before the old arguments would start up again. And I think it's undisputable that proposing to a mass murdering sociopath and offering to share a life together, as he does in Last of the Time Lords, was the most unrealistic plan the Doctor ever thought of and would not have made either of them happy safe for brief moments (but it would have been tremendously fascinating to write about, which is why a lot of people do!), whereas the Doctor and any given Companion manage quite a lot of happy times. As for Jack Bristow... actually, I'm not sure Jack B. would have been happy with a nice woman. Or be best friends with a nice man (I think Dixon, say, or Weiss would have been thrilled, but we don't see Jack hanging out with them, do we?). It probably would have ended in divorce.

Anyway. My point is, that while all of this is a given, it's still nonetheless true that the encounters between equals, no matter whether platonic or not, give scenes between the two people in question a charge that just remains unequaled, sorry for the bad pun. Often, this also includes truth telling that just doesn't happen with other people. Xavier and Magneto are the leaders of their respective camps, and while they have confidants, those confidants nonetheless look up to them, and there are things not spoken about. Jack Bristow, while not a leader, keeps basically anyone he met later in his life at an emotional distance and is really good at intimidating people who want to get closer. While the occasional Companion can make the Doctor 'fess up about some things in rare situations - say, Martha at the end of Gridlock - most of the time he's good at distracting from topics he doesn't want discussed. This just doesn't work with the Master. (As for vice versa - well, with the Master's tendency to see the rest of the universe as insignificant...)

Footnote to this: and because the equality and the mutual challenge is a much loved element of these pairings to me, I am very irritated indeed when finding stories which has one of the parties involved suddenly bereft of all competence, power, eloquence or winning ability. Aside from everything else, I tend to suspect that the writer only likes one of the pair, and that it shows (badly). If we're talking hero/villain combinations (which best friends turned enemies often, but not always - see Tony/Steve - tend to be), then because the hero more often than not wins in canon fanfic tends to let the villain win. Which is fine, as long as it's not too easy or coming with the aforementioned sudden loss of everything that made the hero a challenge to the villain to begin with. Because then these are no longer the people I recognize or am interested in.

Lastly:

And here are some stories that manage to get the balance right and feature all these elements I treasure:, old favourites and some new ones. In addition to those already linked in the text above:

Charles/Erik:

Exit Lines

Golden

Jack, Arvin and Irina:

Hourglass ficlet by kangeiko, short but bringing to point the whole entanglement and sheer history

Love is...


Doctor/Master


Within Reach

Killing the Groundhog: A Controlled Outcome

Come to Utopia


Iron Man (Tony Stark)/ Captain America (Steve Rogers)

Five Times

Comments

[harmonyangel.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes. I agree with pretty much every word you wrote here.

I don't have a lot of these pairings - Tony/Steve is the exception - but I think I can chalk that up to a general disinterest in villains on my part. But all of the tropes you list - two people who know each other so well that they can hurt each other all the better, a long history, wounds that never quite heal, a balanced power dynamic (I, too, have a MAJOR power imbalance squick) - all of those are features that I need in any pairing I'm going to ship.

I don't think it even necessarily has to be a hero/villain, or any configuration of enemies. But stories where the heroes are pissed off at each other and have temporary strands of that (RENT's Mark/Roger, Newsies' Jack/David, for me), or where the pair is sort of simultaneously in a rivalry/antagonistic relationship and a friendship (comicsverse Scott/Logan, for instance), can all feature the same tropes in many of the same ways, and I almost always adore them.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I don't think it even necessarily has to be a hero/villain

Oh no, but in the majority of cases, it tends to be. Well, cases-that-I-know (since I'm not familiar with RENT or Newsies). If such a combination, as with Tony/Steve, comes up without one of them being a villain, all the better, though of course most of Marvel fandom now is convinced Tony IS a villain...

[butterflykiki.livejournal.com]

*glees* Yes, exactly. Equals, backstory, snark, realism. My ideal pairings have all of the above, and if they're reluctant or not-so-reluctant enemies on top of that-- yay!

Most of the above applies to Pretender, and might be why I love it so. The snark factor occasionally disappears, but when it's there, it rocks.

And yes, this is why I ship Jack/Irina. and love watching stuff with Jack & Arvin. I suspect this is why some people ship Snape/Remus, too (not one of my things, but I can see it based on this set-up).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Miss Parker and Jarod most certainly qualify, as childhood friends turned enemies. But I don't think Snape and Lupin do, because they were enemies to begin with. Presumably young Severus hated Remus and Peter a little less than Sirius and James since the later two were the active ones, but he nonetheless hated him. So I'd qualify that as either a pure enemies pairing or in some AU as an enemies turning into friends as they mature pairing.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

"I can't believe you're defending him, Quark, you're his worst enemy."

"Guess that's the closest thing he has in this world to a friend."

[selenak.livejournal.com]

OMG yes Quark and Odo. I do love them together, too. I guess the fact I mostly 'ship Quark with Dax distracted me! Well, though come to think of it, they do not qualify anyway because they weren't friends first, but rather enemies turned friends, which puts them in the category Londo and G'Kar inhabit...

[elyssadc.livejournal.com]

Well written, as always. I think, for me, a lot of the appeal of best enemy pairings comes from the exploration of the fine line that exists between their good and evil actions. The whole dark mirror thing we were talking about yesterday. That kind of paralleling makes BOTH characters more interesting to me because it adds so much compexity to their motivations and often reveals the depths to which both parties engage in self-delusion.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

True, true. That is the "truth-telling among equals" element I was referring to - it's not necessarily literally - i.e. these characters always are right in what they say about the other - but it is through what they do by their existence and by what they bring out in the other character.

Incidentally, thinking of other fandoms we share - I'm wondering whether we'll get something like this on Heroes, because it's a very genre-typical thing, and they do all the big storytelling tropes sooner or later. So far, the closest candidates are Hiro and Kensei/Adam, and Hiro as a comic geek should recognize that... but the friendship period is a bit too short to really qualify.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Small correction: the first renegade Time Lord we meet in Doctor Who is the Meddling Monk, who really succeeds as One's dark mirror. (He's played as well-intentionedly irresponsible rather than consciously evil, although he's willing to commit mass murder if it's vital to his objective.) He first turns up in The Time Meddler, which very recently came out on DVD, and he appears in a couple of episodes of the marathon The Daleks' Master Plan, which is mostly lost although the last of the episodes featuring him is one of three to survive. At this time, of course, the words "Time Lord" hadn't even been thought up, so the third cliffhanger of The Time Meddler, in which the companions find a door in the back of a medieval stone altar and discover a TARDIS console room inside, was a really jawdropping and never-explained-within-the-story "Oh my God, there's more than one mysterious weirdo with a TARDIS!" moment.

And this post is an opportunity to float something I've been wondering about for a while: everyone assumes that the Doctor and the Master were friends/boyfriends until the Master turned evil and they fell out, or they fell out and the Master turned evil in reaction. Is there anything in canon to rule out the possibility that they were friends/boyfriends until the Doctor turned good?

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

PS: the Doctor and the Monk supposedly haven't met before their first on-screen encounter, but they very rapidly fall into a lovely dynamic that is less slashy than Sensible Big Brother/Irritating Little Brother.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Note to self: aquire The Time Meddler dvd.

everyone assumes that the Doctor and the Master were friends/boyfriends until the Master turned evil and they fell out, or they fell out and the Master turned evil in reaction. Is there anything in canon to rule out the possibility that they were friends/boyfriends until the Doctor turned good?

You are a far greater expert than I am, of course, but Wikipedia's article on the Master which presumably names all the important quotes from the two about each other doesn't contain anything that would argue against it. And isn't there an audio with Seven and the actor who played Crispy!Master which goes a bit in that direction, i.e. this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_%28Doctor_Who_audio%29

[lizvogel.livejournal.com]

Is there anything in canon to rule out the possibility that they were friends/boyfriends until the Doctor turned good?

Not in classic aired canon, certainly. You could argue about some of Three's reminiscences (in The Time Monster in particular, IIRC), but that's a matter of interpretation.

[gillyp.livejournal.com]

'Is there anything in canon to rule out the possibility that they were friends/boyfriends until the Doctor turned good?'
That's a very interesting way to look at it. I've never thought of either of them as evil in the dim n distant, so much as... amoral? Arrogant, hubristic and meddling - renegade for sure, but definitely *Time Lords*, in every way.

Clearly The Doctor's moved further from his roots in that respect than The Master, but the idea of them both as being morally ambiguous, Machiavellian and self-serving in their youth seems to fit more closely with The Doctor's character in the early episodes, than the notion of him as a crusader for The Good.

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

I have come to realize that I don't have a friends-turned-enemies kink per se -- sometimes it works for me, but sometimes the enemy enmity (say that five times fast) is too much for me to work with, ship-wise. But I do have a very deep fondness/weakness for 'ships where the relationship should, by all rights, be over and wrecked -- but isn't quite dead. It lingers in the characters, for good or for ill, this sense of what was lost and, more importantly, what isn't quite lost yet. I think, as a 'ship writer, I primarily enjoy resuscitation. CPR. I'm that maniac in every single action movie who pounds on the endangered one's chest screaming, "Live, damn you! You never stopped fighting before, so don't stop now! LIVE!"

[butterflykiki.livejournal.com]

*falls over laughing at image of Yahtzee as EMT for 'ships that are foundering*

Ethan and Giles. DUH. *is very very dumb not to have thought of that earlier* Although they really never did enough with it...

[queenspanky.livejournal.com]

Wonderful essay. Spot on. And poor Jack, he really does draw the short straw, doesn't he? Perhaps he suffers more (I'm talking about how you say that all of his relationships would end in 'divorce') because it wasn't just his best friend, and it wasn't just his wife. It was both of them, at around the same time period, so he never got a break. Or perhaps it was having to pretend to be best friends with someone who you now know in your head to be your enemy and a traitor, but still shows those beautiful flashes of friendship than can make you forget the recent events - and then you are immediately plunged back into the fact that he is deceiving you and you him. Hmm. I haven't thought about Jack for a long time. This is great.

I also love it when enemies become friends - which is actually where I would place Spike and Angel, and Spike and just about anyone really (well, mainly Buffy I guess). And Londo and G'Kar. And Emma Frost and most of the X-Men - I'd argue that she and Jean are pretty friendly before the whole psychic affair incident. And I think the imbalance of power works well in these cases - because it is about them becoming equals, or seeing each other as equals, no matter who triumphed in the past (which is the one reason why Buffy and Faith will never be friends, as Buffy will never see Faith as an equal).

I'm gonna go away and think of more coherent things to say, I feel.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It was both of them, at around the same time period, so he never got a break.

Err, not quite. According to the history of the Alliance Jack and Sydney mention in the pilot, the five CIA agents, Sloane among them, who defected didn't do that until the early 90s. (I think 92 or 93 is the date given?) Which was way after Laura/Irina died/was found out.

Or perhaps it was having to pretend to be best friends with someone who you now know in your head to be your enemy and a traitor, but still shows those beautiful flashes of friendship than can make you forget the recent events - and then you are immediately plunged back into the fact that he is deceiving you and you him. <

And note that when Sloane near the end of s2 asks "when did you stop being my friend?", Jack says "when you recruited Sydney", NOT "when you went over to the Alliance". So Sloane committing any number of dastardly deeds didn't make a difference for Jack - and Jack considered himself a friend despite simultanously spying on Arvin, which is basically what Irina had done to him; the endangerment of Sydney made the difference.

I also love it when enemies become friends - which is actually where I would place Spike and Angel, and Spike and just about anyone really (well, mainly Buffy I guess). And Londo and G'Kar. And Emma Frost and most of the X-Men - I'd argue that she and Jean are pretty friendly before the whole psychic affair incident.

I love that, too, and Londo and G'Kar are my prime example for this. Not sure whether I agree about Buffy and Faith, because their scenes in "End of Days" did convey a sense of friendship and equality - as did in fact the earlier scene of Buffy asking Faith to look after the others.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

I especially like this kind of relationship when it seems like the friendship just won't die, even though it should, by all rights. Jack and Sloane are the best example of this that I can think of (Jack and Irina less so, because for all their chemistry it doesn't seem to me that Jack ever trusts her, while he does trust Sloane within certain parameters).

[yahtzee63.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I don't know about that -- Jack trusts Irina to help him get revenge for Sydney during the two lost years, and he repeatedly turns to her for help in early S3; he also trusts her enough to let her go at the end of S4, which is in retrospect probably the worst call he ever made. So he trusts her in some very important ways.

However, I definitely think that Jack considers Sloane a "known quantity" -- he might not know what Sloane's up to, or when, but he has a sense of the man. I don't think Jack ever had Irina figured out, and I think he was well-aware of that vulnerability. So in that way, I think he is more comfortable dealing with Sloane.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so share this kink, and I've only met one out of your three pairings.

I think Winn/Dukat hits the same kind of spot for me, because even though they don't have so much backstory with each other they have very extensive and complex relationship with each other's gods and planets. And there's real, real lust there (at least) even though all they can do is plot to destroy each other.

Ah, Winn. I miss her.

(This also explains why I never got into Delenn/Sheridan, even though in theory they are an interesting match - they don't at all refer to the backstory which would make them interesting, and in any case they didn't have this backstory *together*.)

But yes on the problematics of writing Doctor/Master. Something I keep coming up again as I try (and fail) to write them is that for them to truly be equals the Master needs to have a character arc of his own that isn't about the Doctor, just like the Doctor has very many character arcs that aren't about the Master. And we know they exist (the Master must have done *something* with his other twelve regenerations - and yes I read the lolarious thread about knitting socks) but we don't so much know what they were, or why they matter and are important.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Re: Winn and Dukat - an AU where they met during the occupation would be fascinating, and you're right that the lack of personal backstory is in part compensated by the history they share in terms of gods and planets.

This also explains why I never got into Delenn/Sheridan, even though in theory they are an interesting match - they don't at all refer to the backstory which would make them interesting, and in any case they didn't have this backstory *together*.

I can appreciate Delenn/Sheridan as a harmonious relationship within the larger narrative, but that's the reason why I haven't felt particularly drawn to it, yes - the show almost makes a point of avoiding all the obvious points of conflict. Sheridan never finds out about Delenn's part in the Earth/Minbari war (and her role is downplayed in the tv movie); Delenn has no relations or friends on the ship Sheridan destroyed so morale-raisingly. The only time they're allowed to have a genuine angst-ridden conflict about something one of them has done is when Anna comes back and Delenn has to admit she knew that was a possibility. But this, too, is basically resolved because of Sheridan sacrificing himself by going to Z'ha'dum, and Delenn going into her fasting grief.

Something I keep coming up again as I try (and fail) to write them is that for them to truly be equals the Master needs to have a character arc of his own that isn't about the Doctor, just like the Doctor has very many character arcs that aren't about the Master. And we know they exist (the Master must have done *something* with his other twelve regenerations - and yes I read the lolarious thread about knitting socks) but we don't so much know what they were, or why they matter and are important.

I think there is a novel about the Master - the one where the name "Koschei" comes from which details some of his backstory beyond the Doctor, and in fact what happened with his other regenerations, but it's not canonical (the thing with media tie-ins), and at any rate by now thoroughly AUd. But it does offer some ideas of what other important things happened to the Master that were unrelated to the Doctor.

[kernezelda]

Definitely one of my kinks, when handled right. I always thought Servalan/Avon would make a deadly pairing, untrusting and ruthless as both are, and yet the physical chemistry burns off the screen (imo).

One of my favorite books ever is In Conquest Born by C. S. Friedman, which explores exactly that theme. Her second novel, Madness Season, also deals with it, as does her Coldfire trilogy.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Oh, the chemistry was definitely of the screen-burning type! But that's an enemy pairing, without the former friends part. Although you have to love Servalan's line to Avon in DeathWatch: "But I don't think of you as an enemy, Avon. I think of you... as a future friend."

Books: noted for future reading!

[genarti]

Argh, I wrote a long reply and LJ ate it. But the gist was that I agree with you about all of this, pretty much every single word -- but that, more than the friends-turned-enemies trope, I am sucker for the friends-turned-enemies-turned-(maybe)-friends set-up.

When all of that complicated history is still there, and there are things left unsaid and half-said and hurtful, and there's lingering mutual mistrust for good reason, and maybe they'll end up on different sides in the end after all -- but for right now, they're on the same side. They're working together, whether they like it or not, and they still understand each other in ways no one else does. Maybe not better than anyone else (although maybe it's that, too) but differently, if only because of what they lived through once. Allies who will never have an uncomplicated relationship, but just might work a friendship out of it, if things go right.

Magneto as the New Mutants' Headmaster, for example, is far more interesting to me than Magneto as Xavier's archenemy. (Okay, that isn't a perfect example since Xavier was off getting himself cloned or healed or whatever through most of that, but still.)

Really, though, I'm a sucker for reluctant respect/friendships in any case, if it's handled with sympathy towards all characters involved.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

When all of that complicated history is still there, and there are things left unsaid and half-said and hurtful, and there's lingering mutual mistrust for good reason, and maybe they'll end up on different sides in the end after all -- but for right now, they're on the same side.

Oh, I love that set-up, too. penknife wrote a great alt!X2 in which Scott and Xavier managed not to get captured by Stryker but were left with no alternative than break Magneto out of jail instead (meanwhile, Jean and Ororo were captured, with Jean taking Charles' place as the telepath hypnotized and plugged into Cerebro so the main plot could proceed), and the interaction between everyone was fantastic.


Magneto as the New Mutants' Headmaster, for example, is far more interesting to me than Magneto as Xavier's archenemy. (Okay, that isn't a perfect example since Xavier was off getting himself cloned or healed or whatever through most of that, but still.)

Well, Xavier's absence does leave room for Magneto to have UST with Emma (it was that run, right?).*g* I just remembered another reluctand cooperation situation in the comics, to wit, everyone teaming up near the end of 1602 and then we get the panel where Enrique basically says "take care of my kids, former boyfriend!" (well, in a Neil Gaimanish and period appropriate way)...

[takethesky87.livejournal.com]

Wow, yes, I have to agree with all of what you said. I've always loved those types of dynamics you've described, friend-enemies with rich backhistory and scenes that refer to it, although I've not really ever sought such relationships out in fanfiction. (Although, I've only been reading fanfic for about half a year and have barely ventured outside of Heroes, so my experiences don't mean much in that regard. *g*) In any case, you have excellent points here, as usual. :)

Someone above mentioned the missed opportunities Heroes had with the older generation, and I agree completely. I hope that's something that gets revisited in the next season. Also, in picking an icon for this comment, it occurs to me that Bennet had/has potential for such relationships--perhaps with Thompson, if he in fact ever considered Thompson as more than just a boss (and if Thompson hadn't died, obviously *g*); or with Claude, probably around the time Bennet was told to kill him. I don't know if that situation really qualifies as Bennet and Claude becoming enemies, but it at least brushes upon the friend-enemy dynamic.

On a related note ... I seem to always be finding my way to your journal, be it for fanfic or meta or recs. You mind if I friend you? :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Not at all! Friend away.

with Claude, probably around the time Bennet was told to kill him. I don't know if that situation really qualifies as Bennet and Claude becoming enemies, but it at least brushes upon the friend-enemy dynamic.

It does, but it is externally solved, so to speak, by Bennet leaving the Company. I'm tentatively hoping for something with Bennet and Bob (a far more interesting character than Thompson ever was), since they are clearly set up as parallels, and there is the interesting fact that Bob went to the bother of resurrecting Noah instead of, you know, leaving him dead, and rehiring him. (My own take on Bob's reason for that is rendered in fanfic, of course.*g*) Especially since they're not playing Bob as an evil overlord who does it for the kicks.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Really good point that former lovers/friends have a depth and history (and intensity) that regular rival-slash pairings don't have. I'd add Goliath/Demona from Gargoyles to the list, because they're my personal nomination for hottest "best enemies" pairing ever. Also Batman/Two-Face (given Bruce's history with Harvey Dent).

Also, Yay my fic! Though I'd say Steve and Tony are less friends-turned-enemies than friends who are forced by external circumstances to oppose one another while remaining friends -- Marvel's been pretty sledge-hammery with the fact that Tony loved Steve more than his own life and still does (Fallen Son, various issues of Iron Man and Captain America). That's part of the tragedy -- that each still loved the other while thinking the other had rejected/turned against him.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks for mentioning Bruce/Harvey because I was sitting here going I know there's a pairing I love like that and I was blanking.

Great post, selenak.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I'm soft on these relationships, too, and I think it's (in part) because they're so damn romantic, in a weird, twisted way. If you have all that history, all that ugliness between you, and yet somehow, down deep, you still care about the other person...what is more ridiculously romantic than that? Why should a few attempted murders and takeovers of the world be the end of it all?

There really aren't enough m/f versions of this, especially not ones that don't make the woman into a femme fatale, which I find often gets tedious and even offensive. Jarod/Miss Parker forever! And when it looked like they were going down this road with a m/f SGA pair, I got really excited. Of course, the SGA writers being what they are, they quickly lost interest and strayed off in search of dullness to graze upon.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

If you have all that history, all that ugliness between you, and yet somehow, down deep, you still care about the other person...what is more ridiculously romantic than that?

True. And I think it's the opposite of rosy-coloured glasses and blind love, because it depends on the fallout in between and seeing the other person's flaws all too clearly. And yet, and yet.

Jarod/Miss Parker forever!

Episodes which had childhood flashbacks for them in addition to present day interaction (other than Miss Parker arriving too late yet again) were invariably highlights of the show to me.

[azdaja-dafema.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree entirely. It's definitely the old enemies/friends thing that gets me too. Well discussed.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[vandonovan.livejournal.com]

Here from your link on your New Beginnings (http://selenak.livejournal.com/379174.html) post.

It's so interesting to me to see this written up. I'm much more opposite. Rivalry pairings are usually a major turn off to me. Granted, there's a signficant difference to friends-cum-enemies verses always-enemies that is an important distinction. I get the friends-cum-enemies a lot more than the sololy-enemies pairing. But even so, these sort of pairings bother me. In the instance of the Doctor and the Master, I just guess I fail to see the point. After so long, I don't see them ever . . . coming to an agreement. I don't see them ever repairing their relationship, or being happy together/friends again. Even if they could set aside their differences, there'd still be the fact that the Master has committed so many crimes and killed so many people, so he could never truly forgive the Master.

And to me, that unbalances the relationship in the way that a teacher/mentor relationship probably unbalances things for you. I don't always want a happy ending, but I prefer one where there's a bit of hope. I want my pairings to ultimately complete each other; to make each other better. And I don't get that from most rivalry pairings. Most of them seem to take away from each other. Sure, there is Doctor/Master banter, and it's a lot of pig-tail pulling on the playground, only instead of pulling pigtails, the Master is leaving trails of dead bodies. I think that wears on the Doctor. He can't stop the Master, or kill him, because the Master is/was a friend to him, but the Master's obsession with the Doctor just makes him miserable, because the longer he lets the Master live, the most people the Master is going to kill. All the ribbing and jokes (and fanon hot sex) can't (or shouldn't) make up for those sort of horrors.

I don't know how the Doctor could live with himself that way. He can't live with himself for letting the Master live, and he couldn't live with himself for killing the Master. So, he is forever miserable. And. I don't know. It just makes me sad. I want them to be happy, so seeing them destroying each other just grates at me. I just don't get it. I wish I did, because there's a hell of a lot of fic out there these days that I just can't read.


Incidentally, as I see you're a fan of Blake's 7, do you know if there are any Blake/Travis fics out there? It's one rivalry relationship that I wouldn't be opposed to reading more of, though I have yet to find anything at all with that pairing.