Doctor Who 4/30.09 Forests of the Dead

[selenak]

In which some guesses come true and others don't, and Stephen Moffat remains both brilliant and irritating.



To get the irritating part out of the way first, which is what I usually do before I can move on to the praise: River being with Donna's imaginary children in the computer-provided virtual world instead of, say, on another expedition, digging, can be charitably explained by our scriptwriter, having given those children some pathos in the earlier scene with Donna when they realise they're not real, wanting to reassure us about their fates. But I rather suspect it's due to the fact he imagines a family really is everyone's dream scenario, especially when you're female.

In all fairness, though: when Paul Cornell had John Smith and Joan Redfern (plus the Doctor in the fobwatch) experience that brief flash of the life they'll never have in Family of Blood, it was all about John Smith having children (we didn't see him teaching, we saw him with Joan & the kids), and his last words were "are the children safe?" so it's not like New Who didn't offer precedent for male characters visualizing an unlived life in exactly the same way.

(Also: a life with access to every single book ever written is pretty paradisical, if you ask me.)

Now, on to the good stuff. Firstly, I'm glad to say I wronged Moffat by suspecting last week he wasn't interested in Donna and thus found a way to write her out of the story until retrieval at the end. Here, she does get her own subplot, there is pay-off for her brief bonding with Miss Evangelista other than having to watch Miss Evangelista's gruesome leftovers and hear her dataghost, by the end, she's as emotionally drained as the Doctor, and they have another lovely friendship scene. Trust Donna to call him out on the "I'm always allright". Incidentally, Donna bonding with the kids and husband I had no problem with; basically, this is the life she thought she'd get when marrying Lance, the road not taken (due to the guy having been a bastard), and also, I'm BTVS-trained: Buffy accepted Dawn as her sister and defended her, Donna would feel this way two children in her care, invented or not.

Kudos to everyone who correctly guessed last week that Dr. Moon was an anti-virus/maintenance programm and the little girl the central computer upon first watching. (It took me rewatching and reading other reviews.) The fact she's not "just" a computer but also was a genuine little girl before that and part of Mr. Lux' family was unexpected, and even more unexpected that Mr. Lux' motives weren't dastardly exploitation (which is more often than not the case with rich people on DW) but genuine protectiveness. In addition to Moffat giving us another "everyone lives!" story (which I loved), you could also say he gives us another "everyone is redeemed, there are no true villains" tale. Including the Vashta Nerada, who as opposed to many a DW monster (the Empress of the Raccnoss comes to mind, as to the Krilitane) do accept the Doctor's offer instead of insisting on having their meat and no compromise, literally. And may I say, the reveal scene was terrific? I think I figured out Anita had already been consumed about a second or so before the Doctor said it, but not earlier. (Also, Anita was another case in point of the show managing to keep the redshirts of a story individuals, not just numbers.)

Intermission: dust in the library from books breeding flesh-eating microbes = Moffat being very very evil. See also: making us suspicious of every statue around. Curse you, Moff! (In a good way.)

Lastly, River Song. Again, kudos to people who guessed from the clip the BBC put up earlier this week that what she whispered in the Doctor's ear to convince him they truly knew each other in his future would be his name. (And no prizes for guessing we wouldn't hear it out loud. It's one of those things, like the true reason why he left Gallifrey, that the show will never reveal.) But you know the detail I loved most? That him having given her his screwdriver turned out not to be for sentimental reasons but as a way of saving her (with the double meaning of "saving"). That was awesome. Also something I didn't foresee whereas I was reasonably sure she'd die in the episode. The Doctor knowing River will die when he meets her in his future timeline is of course something true for every single one of his companions (even Jack, post- Face of Boe revelation), but here it's sharpened and crystallized by the fact he sees that death play out right on front of him before they meet for the first time from her pov. It's all kinds of poignant and screwed up, and yet again not, for the gun shown in the first act (the dataghost, the saving) is indeed fired to make everyone live. I can't say I'm in love with River the way one sometimes instantly falls for characters, but I like her enormously, and if Future!Doctor finds a way to retrieve her from the computer and make her physical again I'm all on board for that. Plus Alex Kingston is great, pure and simple.

The Doctor and Donna deciding not to read River's diary: mirrors the scene at the start where they draw back their hands from the books, and worked for me. Better discover the future on their own. I do hope for some mutual hurt/comfort stories from fandom before the next episode, though.

Trailer: is that the episode with David "Son of Patrick" Throughton next?

Comments

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

What I liked best about the name reveal is that, if I'm not mistaken, it's a clip from "Flavia's Theme/The Doctor's Time Lordy Music" backwards played over whatever nothing Alex Kingston whispers in his ear. (I kind of like to think that it IS his name.)

Can't wait for you to get to Battlestar; I thought it had the stronger showing this week.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I've seen BSG and it was indeed great; review will follow either tonight or tomorrow.

You must download this week's podcast, which is Moffat, Rusty and David Tennant having a blast, geeking out and flirting ("so which of us do you love most, David?"), and they comment on that very thing with the music when she whispers as well.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

I did finally put Tor on Jadzia; I'll mask my IP tomorrow and have a listen. (It's actually on my to-do list.)

ETA: Not necessary; not a feature that requires you to 'be in the UK'. I think I'll have a listen now.

ETA2: That was a shitload of fun. They all seem to get on very well, which makes me hopeful Dave Tennant will stick around for season five. (Which, I think is pretty good odds, but some people immediately started hyperventilating in a bag.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It definitely sounded as if he'll be around for season 5, and frankly, other than the start of New Who itself, I can't think of a precedent where the Doctor, the companion and the headwriter all changed at the same time. Usually at least one of the tree sticks around a while longer to ease the transition.

[skywaterblue.livejournal.com]

I think so, but I never want to put a definitive on it because -- shit happens.

[bimo.livejournal.com]

As I usually tend to stay away from DW news sites and posting boards:

Wow, they actually casted David Troughton? It's only a about three weeks ago that I saw him in Curse of Peladon (and liked him immensely). Given the guest appearance of Georgia Moffett, I had already wondered when the BBC would get back to him as well...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

According to wiki, they did. Now we're all wondering when it's going to be Sean Pertwee's turn...

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

In all fairness, though: when Paul Cornell had John Smith and Joan Redfern (plus the Doctor in the fobwatch) experience that brief flash of the life they'll never have in Family of Blood, it was all about John Smith having children (we didn't see him teaching, we saw him with Joan & the kids), and his last words were "are the children safe?" so it's not like New Who didn't offer precedent for male characters visualizing an unlived life in exactly the same way.

Yeah, but the thought that a man of the early 20th century, which John Smith was in nearly every sense of the word, would have the same life dream as a woman of the 51st century is a bit of a letdown, no? Not that Who doesn't usually go for a cozy "everyone is basically the same in all eras" approach.

That said, it didn't faze me much, because I felt this was Cal's fantasy, not River's. And I'm sure she can negotiate for digs and the like, and hopefully take Cal, Dr. Moon, the data kids and her expedition out a bit.

I liked this episode, too, but less than the first part, and I found the meta parts a little too intrusive this time around. I also felt somewhat uncomfortable about Miss Evangelista suddenly being a better person for being cleverer, but less pretty. I was glad that Donna did get something to do after all, though, and I liked her husband. I imagine he could be a more positive exit outlook for her - not dying a la Astrid, but marrying someone a la Jo?

The Doctor and Donna deciding not to read River's diary: mirrors the scene at the start where they draw back their hands from the books, and worked for me. Better discover the future on their own.

I would have read it. ;) (But I'm glad they didn't, except - are we sure Donna didn't? Because she would have had time for it while Ten was saving River.)

David "Son of Patrick" Throughton

Is this the Season of Children of Former Doctors? Will Sean Pertwee be around also?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That said, it didn't faze me much, because I felt this was Cal's fantasy, not River's. And I'm sure she can negotiate for digs and the like, and hopefully take Cal, Dr. Moon, the data kids and her expedition out a bit.

Good point, and yes, Cal is the one providing all the scenarios, so it makes sense this would be her fantasty.

I imagine he could be a more positive exit outlook for her - not dying a la Astrid, but marrying someone a la Jo?

As long as, like Jo, she also continues the adventure (Jo signed on to go to the Amazon with Cliff, the marriage proposal came after.)

But I'm glad they didn't, except - are we sure Donna didn't? Because she would have had time for it while Ten was saving River.

Oooohhh, that's an idea. I suppose she could have done, and it could be revealed to us in a later ep.

Is this the Season of Children of Former Doctors? Will Sean Pertwee be around also?

Not that I know of, but it can only be a question of time.*g* (David Throughton already appeared twice on DW, in "The War Games" - Private Moor - and in Curse of Peladon - King Peladon.)

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

As long as, like Jo, she also continues the adventure (Jo signed on to go to the Amazon with Cliff, the marriage proposal came after.)

Well, we never found out what Lee does - maybe he's an archaeologist as well? Or a spy - he was in the library under a false name, after all. *g*

[elisi]

Did you watch the Confidential? If not, you should - very interesting this week!

(Sorry about the briefness, am running out the door)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm about to. I can also recommend the podcast, which is great fun (though perhaps at times less than comprehensible for New Who only watchers), as Moffat, RTD and David Tennant geek out on a massive scale.

[greenpear.livejournal.com]

The biggest letdown was NOT having River out in the universe exploring it. That's what I think would have been her "Happy" moment.

I guessed that the girl and Dr. Moon were te computers but it was a complete shock to see how Lux was the rich, but caring, relative only wanting to protect her. WOW, a benevolent rich guy on Doctor Who...

And finally I think part one was stronger that part two as it had the advantage of the building up of the pot and leaving he viewers wondering which way it would go. And no matter what Moffett did it would disappoint some of the viewers.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

wee_warrior pointed out that Cal was providing the fantasy scenarios, so I now declare River gently made it clear later that her ideal world looks a bit differently.

WOW, a benevolent rich guy on Doctor Who...

Rare indeed. That was one of the twists which really surprised me.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I am less unhappy with River 's situation at the end because it least Moffat allowed her to be an admirable character and have the main part of her life exploring the universe rather than Davies's frequent subtext of "Anybody who dreams of exploring the universe without being selected by the Doctor, and has any ambition for their life at all except for marrying someone they've known since primary school and raising kids in the suburbs, is heartless, hubristic and evil".

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You know, this is a bit like me saying "I liked that dish except for the anchovies, because I don't fancy anchovies" and you saying "but there weren't any pepperoni in that dish, pepperoni are vile!"

(But if we have to talk about pepperoni instead of the anchovies that actually were under discussion: going by RTD only written episodes, I can think of quite a lot of characters who have ambitions other than marry their schoolmate and raise kids and are presented in a positive light, even excluding our three main companions so far. Astrid took the waitress job because she wanted to see more of the universe, this had nothing to do with the Doctor whom she only met because she was already travelling. Mr. Copper might be a bit of a con man, but in a benevolent way, and he, too, wanted to travel and see more without needing to be inspired by the Doctor. Wilf, of course, had the longing and curiosity about the universe long before his granddaughter hooked up with the Doctor. Milo and Jean as well as Brannigan and Valerie might be couples with kids present and future, but they're on the motorway because they want a better situation than the one they had, they want to have a better job and they want to see the sunlight. The crew from Impossible Planet/Satan's Pit might be morally ambiguous in as much as they accept the Ood slavery status quo, but they're not shown as evil, nor is their desire to explore; the Doctor openly admires them for being so daring and having their station over the impossible planet in question.)

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Sorry.

(And hmm, Astrid and Copper are working-class intruders on an expensive package tour rather than an exploration, which makes them not so much ambitious to explore the truly unknown as ambitious to experience more of the possibilities of their own society. Likewise the literally social-climbing characters on the Motorway in Gridlocked. And the IP/SP people may be admired by the Doctor, but they're mostly punching the clock rather than inspired, and their explorations don't actually achieve much except get several people killed and nearly unleash Ancient Evil on the universe again. Wilfred is a rare genuine exception, but I can't help suspecting he's old and unsuccessful enough not to be a threat in whatever way RTD feels the Doctor is threatened by these characters.)

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Yes! Thanks for saying what I thought about the incredibly dumb Moffat view on relationships and familes for females; I feel less alone now.

Also, right, the screwdriver! I didn't reference that in my review, but boy, it was one brilliant aspect of the whole time-travel story, all of which was done very well both on a plot and a characterisation level, I though. River Song's character -- well, only up to the the end -- also made me feel a little less enraged with Moffat's women.

Very good point about the minor characters, too -- they really did feel like people, the women even more so than the guys, now that I think about it. Plus, not an all-white cast, although New Who tends to do rather well in at least that department.

As for the Vashta Nerada -- yes, they gave in, but what I didn't understand, frankly, is why they WOULD hold off for a day: The Doctor had already stopped the self-destruct by that point, so the library was saved. Why would they just eat him and the remaining companions? It's not as if there would be new visitors to the library, after all, with it being infested. Last chance to snack!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Why would they just eat him and the remaining companions? It's not as if there would be new visitors to the library, after all, with it being infested. Last chance to snack!

True, but if they have access to the library, they probably looked up records and found out what happened to the Raccnoss, the Krilitane and the other folk who went for the snack instead of the retreat. That Oncoming Storm reputation can come in handy.

In the Confidential, you have Moffat saying that the two kids were a homage to his own two. To which one can say, it's sweet that you wanted to immortalize your children, but thinking through the implications of paradise scenario + women + children would have been even better. Ah well. I'm going with Wee_Warrior's explanation: it was Cal's fantasy scenario, and River later negotiated trips.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

if they have access to the library, they probably looked up records and found out what happened to the Raccnoss, the Krilitane and the other folk who went for the snack instead of the retreat. That Oncoming Storm reputation can come in handy.

Fair enough; I guess I just don't see the Doctor's power in that particular moment: short of blowing up the whole library and everyone in it including 4,200 human/oid souls, he could, not harm them.

But I guess they were more cautious and clever than your average shadow-dwelling flesh eaters, so okay.

you have Moffat saying that the two kids were a homage to his own two. To which one can say, it's sweet that you wanted to immortalize your children, but thinking through the implications of paradise scenario + women + children would have been even better.

Not to be rude -- ah, fine, to be rude: who on Earth cares for Moffat's rugrats?? I want a good story with decent characterisation.

Ah well. I'm going with Wee_Warrior's explanation: it was Cal's fantasy scenario, and River later negotiated trips.

Nice fanwank, true.

[wondygal.livejournal.com]

a life with access to every single book ever written is pretty paradisical, if you ask me.

And so that was enough for me. I was glad she had books and her friends and chose to not be annoyed.(every book!) I also loved the little girl, yes, that she was there not due to cruelty, but to love.

I was mildly disappointed fandom guessed almost everything, I kept expecting Moffat to turn it around and shock us somehow. But there was plenty we didn't see coming, and I did finish the episode with my hands shaking, so I'm not complaining.

I am with you on River Song. I love her, but I am also naturally inclined to not let the Doctor get canonically involved in romances(though I do ship him with everyone ever), so I appreciated they didn't come out and say WIFE. For a moment, I hoped madly she'd turn out to be Susan, when she was about to die (because he says "I only told", if I'm not mistaken. But I was all over the place this episode, when she said she'd been to the end of the universe with him I shouted "Martha!", and when a lady with a veil wanted to speak to Donna, I shouted "Rose!" I was pretty hyper.). Which is just to say, I can go on believing whatever I want, so thanks a lot, Mr. Moffat. ALSO, she punched him! I laughed. Alex Kingston was excellent.

And because I did not mention her anywhere in this comment, I love Donna so much. She is so great with the Doctor. I hope very much she survives the season.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

With you on the romances, as far as romances over several episodes or seasons are concerned - I loved him as One with Cameca, I loved The Girl in the Fireplace, and since River implied they never "live" together but each do their own thing, then they have an adventure together, then they separate again, something like that - i.e. one episode, or a special - would be okay. And yes, word on Alex Kingston. I am so glad they picked her, someone who really can convey experience and lots of personality.

If Donna doesn't survive the season, I'll be bawling for months. I mean, my current guess is a sort-of-death-and-resurrection that somehow depends on her not continuing to travel with the Doctor immediately, but I need Donna to be alive and able to be around for further adventures, both on her own and with the Doctor, in some future. I *heart* her so much.

[mermaidrain.livejournal.com]

I"m surprised that you didn't mention the "spoilers" comparison. Donna and Doctor could have read the diary to know about future episodes of their adventures, as it were, much like fans craving spoilers for the show itself. And I found myself actually giggling at that allusion myself at the end there. Especially given how rabid some of the fans are in real life about trying to get said spoilers for the show. Nice little plug that. ;)

Also surprised you didn't mention Donna's "real" significant other that she missed paths with. I have to wonder if that's a closed storyline or if he's going to crop up again. JUST because of that last bit where we see him right before he's teleported out. They could have left him as an imaginary construct, but NO, they had to throw in that last little bit. =P"

[thesecondevil]

Regarding the final scene with River the way I interpreted it was that River had been telling the kids the story of her and The Doctor before putting them to bed in the evening after a long day. After all, based on what we see of Donna's experiences in the computer it's possible they spent the whole 'day' travelling through various books and pop in the house to sleep.

I do wonder whether Donna peeked at or kept hold of River's diary after The Doctor went on his mad dash to plug her into the system.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I did find River Song a bit more Mary Sue-ish in this one, because of the continuing insistence on how special she was. I could cope with it, though, because (a) she appealed to me a lot more than Rose, and (b) I wasn't expecting her to stick around, and (c) it was her who kept telling us how close she was to the Doctor, and though that didn't mean she was lying (clearly there was some reason for her knowing his name) it's entirely natural to see one's own story as the central one. If Moffat wants to go on to show the Doctor meeting her in the timeline she's described, though, I think he's put himself in a very difficult position.

Also I got a bit irritated by the angst overload, even though I thought Tennant acted those scenes well. In the days since I've been far more haunted by Donna losing her children; the idea that the two people she loved most in the world didn't even exist actually made it more painful. So I quite liked the ending, because all three children seemed to be happy, even if Donna wasn't. Do we forget that the show is written especially for an audience of children, who might be attracted by the idea of a foster mother as exciting as River?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

In the days since I've been far more haunted by Donna losing her children; the idea that the two people she loved most in the world didn't even exist actually made it more painful.

True, and this is also why I had no problem Donna reacting to Miss Evangelista's revelation with "I have got get out of here!" but "I have to protect the children" - they were real to her. And given that they became at the end self aware enough to voice the fear of not existing themselves right before they blinked out, she must keep wondering whether she could have kept them alive longer somehow. Which is one of the things I want to see in a h/c fic - the Doctor talking with her about the virtual world, so she'd at least know these children still exist.

Do we forget that the show is written especially for an audience of children, who might be attracted by the idea of a foster mother as exciting as River?

That's a good point. I've found another post which made me come around to the ending, too:

http://shaggydogstail.livejournal.com/314846.html