Some meta, and more drabbles
Oct. 12th, 2004 12:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakBrowsing through friends' friends list and the like, I came across a post of Kita's which describes a well-known syndrom in many a fandom: the impression one is part of a persecuted minority, with TPTB and/or other fen specifically gunning for the character/the 'ship in question. Even if said character and/or 'ship is actually more than popular with both fandom and writers; she mentioned Spike in this regard; you could add Faith or Lilah, or, switching fandoms, Sam Gamgee. I couldn't believe my eyes when reading a post mentioning Sam as a character who was underappreciated and hard done by. By whom? His creator? Tolkien used Sam's pov from TTT onwards for all the Sam & Frodo scenes. His fellow Hobbits? Sam ends up as mayor of Hobbiton and RotK specifically mentions that he, Merry and Pippin get the public applause and fame among the Hobbits Frodo does not, much to Sam's frustration. And while marriage and 13 kids are perhaps not a happy ending in many a slasher's pov, it's clearly intended as a reward by Tolkien. Moving on to the fandom, I haven't met one fan who doesn't love Sam. So where is the lack of appreciation for Samwise Gamgee?
Back to the topic at hand.
I must admit I'm somewhat guilty of claiming minority status myself at times, what with liking the Star War prequels and venting about the lack of Centauri fanfic until a year ago. Or liking Dawn on BTVS. But I hope I haven't bought into the feeling of persecution by TPTB or other fans.
My guess is that it might come down to the ambivalent feeling many fans have about the creator(s) of their original text, and the imbalance of power they cannot quite accept. No matter how popular Fanon!Draco is and how many fanfics featuring him are written, they won't change the fact he'll never show up in the Harry Potter novels. And no matter how many fan declare they're in the fandom solely for the fanfic, the existence of the novels as a work in progress and prime source will continue to influence said fanfic, whereas the reverse will never be true.
Similarly, it doesn't matter how many rants are written about George Lucas both in the print media and on the internet. He can afford financially to be indifferent (as opposed to, say, producers of a TV show struggling in the ratings). And all the purist fervour of the world is not going to take the prequels away, or to produce the OT in it's originally released form, or to produce sequels (unless Lucas has a heart stroke and dies tomorrow and his daughter really, really needs the money). The man has the copyright.
It gets trickier with fandoms that are by definition created by several sources. Babylon 5 being something of an exception because starting with late season 2 JMS really wrote all the episodes himself. Now that might sometimes result in episodes where you feel the exhaustion, but on the other hand you don't have episodes that feel as if the writer isn't that familiar with the characters (D.C. Fontana's The War Prayer comes to mind, where the JMS written scene between Londo and Vir in the garden clearly differs in style from the rest of the ep), and you do have an ongoing characterisation. I might have missed something, but I don't think B5 fandom had complaints like "OMG, JMS hates Marcus!" when Mr. Cole bought it, or "Garibaldi/Lise is so out of character". There was much grief for Marcus' death, and Lise was much disliked, but I don't think it was argued that either Marcus sacrificing himself for Ivanova, or Garibaldi finally ending up with the woman he obsesses about as early as season 1 didn't make sense.
And then there are shows like the Jossverse ones, where Joss Whedon is a prime influence but definitely not the only one shaping the universe or characters of the three shows he produced. With the exception of Tim Minear, I can't think of a major Jossverse writer, including Joss himself, who didn't go through phases of being loved and being hated by several fannish factions. (Or was there Minear resentment that I missed?) Bear in mind I don't mean every day criticism (i.e. "episode X was a filler, and character Y didn't have much to do"); I mean the "Joss/Marti/David Fury/Whoever hates Y and ruined Z!" kind of uproars. Again with the imbalance of power; the Jossverse scribes interacted more with the fans than most TV creators via message boards and conventions, and that might have fed the sense of entitlement and fury, no pun intended, when storylines did not go where some fans wanted them to go. We communicate with each other via the internet; all the chats might have created a deceptive illusion of equality. Because, let's face it, it always was an illusion. Popularity of characters like Spike or Lindsey might have kept them alive longer than originally intended, or brought them back, but there was no way the ME team was ever going to have a "who survives, who dies" poll. The creative process on TV is oligarchic at best; it never was a democracy, and fervent believer in democracy that I am, I don't think I'd want it to be.
(For one thing, my girl Darla would never have been brought back after her brief stint in BTVS season 1 and developed into the character she became; there was no Darla demand existing in fandom. For another, Andrew would have bought it, not Jonathan, and I thought Andrew surviving was the far more interesting choice. Etc.)
I'd define fanfiction as an ongoing dialogue with the original source. Sometimes arguing for, sometimes arguing against it. And that can be very rewarding. But as mechanisms go, it's rather going to make you part of a larger community, not of a persecuted minority. Because, and that is one of the joys of fandom, there are usually far more people agreeing or feeling a similar need than you would have thought.
***
Speaking of fanfic, check out the drabbles I received in reply to my post yesterday, in the comments. From my various fandoms, and they're absolutely delightful. So naturally I wrote some more myself, for other people.
Fun
(Sandman)
***
This was supposed to be fun. And once upon a time, it had been. Annoying Dream in his duty-bound stuffiness, tasting the anger and frustration in his heart each time he visited Desire's realm. Knowing he would never, ever be able to muster the most perfect of defenses: indifference. For how could he ever stop to desire?
But now the boy had died, and the flower, the perfect red flower in Desire's hands carried no breath of triumph to it. Instead, it smelled of grief and brokenness. Why was it that the knowledge of Dream being broken scared Desire?
This was supposed to be fun.
Dust
(Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
***
The dust hasn't even settled. It never will. Buffy is familiar with dust. She breathes it in and out each day, each night: the ashes of the vampires she fights, the dry cemetery ground she runs over when she pursues them, the sand from the desert, brought by the wind on some days. It clings to her skin and remains in her hair, no matter how many showers she takes.
When she woke up in a coffin, the smell of her own decay was so strong that it drowned out her awareness of nearly everything else, but not dust. The thick earth, falling on on her as she dragged herself out of her grave. It was something familiar, as reassuring as it was frightening. She could not decide which it was more.
Now Sunnydale is gone, but the dust hasn't settled. Only its quality has changed. She stands at the edge of the crater, breathing it in. Old loss, new loss, yes, that is familiar, but there is hope here as well, for the first time. She's not sure she'll want to take a shower tonight.
The dust hasn't settled yet, and it never will.
The Uninvited Guest
(Star Trek: Deep Space Nine)
***
She never talked to any of the other guests. That was how Kira first noticed her. Hosting receptions was one of the more wearying and less rewarding tasks she had inherited from Sisko as the station commander. In the old days, she could have ignored the dark human woman who kept watching her, or she could have asked the stranger what she thought she was doing. These days, Kira felt obliged to saunter over and ask politely whether there was something she could do.
"Yes," the woman said, in a low, pleasing voice that grew edgier with each word.
"You can help me destroy the ones who raped me and used me as their plaything. The ones whom I had pretend to die for to escape. The ones who drove my son insane and nearly got my grandson killed in their battles for power."
"The Dominion has withdrawn from the Alpha Quadrant," Kira said, empathizing with the woman's rage but forcing herself to be what she had learned to be. "And the Cardassians are worse off than you could ever make them right now."
The woman stared at her. "I'm not talking of the Dominion or the Cardassians," she said. "I came to you because they did something similar to you once as well."
"Who are you?" Kira asked, suddenly having a bad feeling about all of this.
"My name is Sarah," the woman replied. "And I need you to help me destroy the Prophets."
You know, the later was partly caused by discussing DS9 with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
andrastewhite, and partly by my own ongoing issues with the Prophets. I do have the vague idea of writing a larger fic which would either put Kira in a similar situation to the one the various Weyouns were in with Odo - i.e. one of her gods leaves heaven and tells her heaven is truly morally rotten and she shouldn't worship, or use the somewhat different idea of this drabble as a starting point. ..
Back to the topic at hand.
I must admit I'm somewhat guilty of claiming minority status myself at times, what with liking the Star War prequels and venting about the lack of Centauri fanfic until a year ago. Or liking Dawn on BTVS. But I hope I haven't bought into the feeling of persecution by TPTB or other fans.
My guess is that it might come down to the ambivalent feeling many fans have about the creator(s) of their original text, and the imbalance of power they cannot quite accept. No matter how popular Fanon!Draco is and how many fanfics featuring him are written, they won't change the fact he'll never show up in the Harry Potter novels. And no matter how many fan declare they're in the fandom solely for the fanfic, the existence of the novels as a work in progress and prime source will continue to influence said fanfic, whereas the reverse will never be true.
Similarly, it doesn't matter how many rants are written about George Lucas both in the print media and on the internet. He can afford financially to be indifferent (as opposed to, say, producers of a TV show struggling in the ratings). And all the purist fervour of the world is not going to take the prequels away, or to produce the OT in it's originally released form, or to produce sequels (unless Lucas has a heart stroke and dies tomorrow and his daughter really, really needs the money). The man has the copyright.
It gets trickier with fandoms that are by definition created by several sources. Babylon 5 being something of an exception because starting with late season 2 JMS really wrote all the episodes himself. Now that might sometimes result in episodes where you feel the exhaustion, but on the other hand you don't have episodes that feel as if the writer isn't that familiar with the characters (D.C. Fontana's The War Prayer comes to mind, where the JMS written scene between Londo and Vir in the garden clearly differs in style from the rest of the ep), and you do have an ongoing characterisation. I might have missed something, but I don't think B5 fandom had complaints like "OMG, JMS hates Marcus!" when Mr. Cole bought it, or "Garibaldi/Lise is so out of character". There was much grief for Marcus' death, and Lise was much disliked, but I don't think it was argued that either Marcus sacrificing himself for Ivanova, or Garibaldi finally ending up with the woman he obsesses about as early as season 1 didn't make sense.
And then there are shows like the Jossverse ones, where Joss Whedon is a prime influence but definitely not the only one shaping the universe or characters of the three shows he produced. With the exception of Tim Minear, I can't think of a major Jossverse writer, including Joss himself, who didn't go through phases of being loved and being hated by several fannish factions. (Or was there Minear resentment that I missed?) Bear in mind I don't mean every day criticism (i.e. "episode X was a filler, and character Y didn't have much to do"); I mean the "Joss/Marti/David Fury/Whoever hates Y and ruined Z!" kind of uproars. Again with the imbalance of power; the Jossverse scribes interacted more with the fans than most TV creators via message boards and conventions, and that might have fed the sense of entitlement and fury, no pun intended, when storylines did not go where some fans wanted them to go. We communicate with each other via the internet; all the chats might have created a deceptive illusion of equality. Because, let's face it, it always was an illusion. Popularity of characters like Spike or Lindsey might have kept them alive longer than originally intended, or brought them back, but there was no way the ME team was ever going to have a "who survives, who dies" poll. The creative process on TV is oligarchic at best; it never was a democracy, and fervent believer in democracy that I am, I don't think I'd want it to be.
(For one thing, my girl Darla would never have been brought back after her brief stint in BTVS season 1 and developed into the character she became; there was no Darla demand existing in fandom. For another, Andrew would have bought it, not Jonathan, and I thought Andrew surviving was the far more interesting choice. Etc.)
I'd define fanfiction as an ongoing dialogue with the original source. Sometimes arguing for, sometimes arguing against it. And that can be very rewarding. But as mechanisms go, it's rather going to make you part of a larger community, not of a persecuted minority. Because, and that is one of the joys of fandom, there are usually far more people agreeing or feeling a similar need than you would have thought.
***
Speaking of fanfic, check out the drabbles I received in reply to my post yesterday, in the comments. From my various fandoms, and they're absolutely delightful. So naturally I wrote some more myself, for other people.
Fun
(Sandman)
***
This was supposed to be fun. And once upon a time, it had been. Annoying Dream in his duty-bound stuffiness, tasting the anger and frustration in his heart each time he visited Desire's realm. Knowing he would never, ever be able to muster the most perfect of defenses: indifference. For how could he ever stop to desire?
But now the boy had died, and the flower, the perfect red flower in Desire's hands carried no breath of triumph to it. Instead, it smelled of grief and brokenness. Why was it that the knowledge of Dream being broken scared Desire?
This was supposed to be fun.
Dust
(Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
***
The dust hasn't even settled. It never will. Buffy is familiar with dust. She breathes it in and out each day, each night: the ashes of the vampires she fights, the dry cemetery ground she runs over when she pursues them, the sand from the desert, brought by the wind on some days. It clings to her skin and remains in her hair, no matter how many showers she takes.
When she woke up in a coffin, the smell of her own decay was so strong that it drowned out her awareness of nearly everything else, but not dust. The thick earth, falling on on her as she dragged herself out of her grave. It was something familiar, as reassuring as it was frightening. She could not decide which it was more.
Now Sunnydale is gone, but the dust hasn't settled. Only its quality has changed. She stands at the edge of the crater, breathing it in. Old loss, new loss, yes, that is familiar, but there is hope here as well, for the first time. She's not sure she'll want to take a shower tonight.
The dust hasn't settled yet, and it never will.
The Uninvited Guest
(Star Trek: Deep Space Nine)
***
She never talked to any of the other guests. That was how Kira first noticed her. Hosting receptions was one of the more wearying and less rewarding tasks she had inherited from Sisko as the station commander. In the old days, she could have ignored the dark human woman who kept watching her, or she could have asked the stranger what she thought she was doing. These days, Kira felt obliged to saunter over and ask politely whether there was something she could do.
"Yes," the woman said, in a low, pleasing voice that grew edgier with each word.
"You can help me destroy the ones who raped me and used me as their plaything. The ones whom I had pretend to die for to escape. The ones who drove my son insane and nearly got my grandson killed in their battles for power."
"The Dominion has withdrawn from the Alpha Quadrant," Kira said, empathizing with the woman's rage but forcing herself to be what she had learned to be. "And the Cardassians are worse off than you could ever make them right now."
The woman stared at her. "I'm not talking of the Dominion or the Cardassians," she said. "I came to you because they did something similar to you once as well."
"Who are you?" Kira asked, suddenly having a bad feeling about all of this.
"My name is Sarah," the woman replied. "And I need you to help me destroy the Prophets."
You know, the later was partly caused by discussing DS9 with
andrastewhite, and partly by my own ongoing issues with the Prophets. I do have the vague idea of writing a larger fic which would either put Kira in a similar situation to the one the various Weyouns were in with Odo - i.e. one of her gods leaves heaven and tells her heaven is truly morally rotten and she shouldn't worship, or use the somewhat different idea of this drabble as a starting point. ..
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 04:29 am (UTC)Though I don't comment much, I really enjoy reading your LJ and your fic.
I just wanted to de-lurk to ask for more of the Kira-story. If you are already thinking about writing more, I just wanted to say that at least one person (though unknown to you) would really would like to read it. :-)
Of course, the other drabbles were also beautiful, although I haven't read "Sandman" (yet).
I hope, I didn't bother you.
Greetings, Py.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 04:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 04:58 am (UTC)Secondly, as to the meta: I think there's a way to tell the difference between a fan who legitimately feels that their favourite character/'ship has been mistreated, or that their POV is a minority one, and a fan with a persecution complex. It's a question of perspective, and an ability to reality-check your beliefs. A few salient examples.
Comics fandom is one of those fandoms where characters really do get mishandled badly by incompetent writers distressingly often. There are plenty of professionals who work for Marvel Comics, or who have done so in the past, who think that Magneto should be a rat bastard villain with no redeeming qualities. They've criticised and openly mocked other writers (and fans) who think differently. They have written Magneto very, very badly. Naturally I disagree with their interpretation and wish they'd left the character alone.
However, I also disagree with the group of Magneto fans who put this bad writing down to anti-Semitism on the part of Marvel Comics or those writers - there are far more simple explanations for bad comic writing than a conspiracy against Jews. I think anyone who accuses Neil Gaiman of working with Marvel to destroy Magneto's Jewish heritage needs to stop and think first.
To take an example of a relationship I'm interested in that didn't get as much attention as I would have liked, we have the case of Garak/Bashir, and the curious neglect it was often treated with in the later seasons of DS9. I think it's sad that the characters don't have more scenes together from the middle of Season Four, since their interaction was always entertaining. (And really slashy *g*.)
On the other hand, I'm not one of those fans who think the show was 'ruined' after they stopped having whole episodes together. Nor do I have any issue with the substance of their interaction after that point - I just wish there had been more of it.
As for belonging to a fannish minority, when I got into X-Men fandom, there were two self-identifying Charles Xavier fans on the entire internet,
But then things changed! Alara built her archive, I wrote lots of fic and talked about how cool Charles was to anyone who would listen. The movies came along, and the Patrick Stewart Factor with them. These days I'm more likely to enthuse about how much great Xavier fanfic there is than bemoan the lack of it.
This, to me, is the test. It's possible to believe that, for example, making Gul Dukat into a crazy evil villain was a mistake, or that not many people like Dawn Summers, or that there should be more fic about Londo Mollari, and be right. The problem arrives when you tip over into melodramatic rants about how the show writers are terrible, or the rest of fandom is out to get you.
A key indication of a persecution complex, IMHO, is a belief that fandom never changes for the better. In that same comics fandom I first joined, there were a group of guys (and for some reason they were mostly guys) who complained that no-one ever wrote anything but X-Men fanfic, and other comics were neglected. At first I agreed that they had a point, and it drove me to write some stories for fandoms like Watchmen and Astro City that never attracted fanfic.
Then I noticed something. As the years went by, there was more and more non-X comic fanfic written. You'd think this would make the people who wanted more of it happy, right? But no. They still kept ranting those same rants, and when people pointed out to them that the percentages had changed a lot, they complained that the kind of fanfic they liked to read still wasn't being written, and that nothing had really changed, we were still all x-zombies.
If you come to think that fandom can't be changed, then you may never notice when it does.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 05:15 am (UTC)They did what? Yikes. That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard since the tinhats swore that Ian McKellen was working with New Line to keep Elijah Wood and Dominic Monaghan in the cloeset.
Anyway, agreed that bad writing and neglect can be quite real. I started out watching Earth: Final Conflict, and stopped after the third season because the level of writing really had degraded beyond repair. But I don't think this was because any of the (quickly changing) writers "hated" any of the characters, or was deliberately out to ruin them.
This, to me, is the test. It's possible to believe that, for example, making Gul Dukat into a crazy evil villain was a mistake, or that not many people like Dawn Summers, or that there should be more fic about Londo Mollari, and be right. The problem arrives when you tip over into melodramatic rants about how the show writers are terrible, or the rest of fandom is out to get you.
Yes, exactly. And amen to the fluidity of fandom. Even if the primary text is finished and done with - i.e. if it's a TV show, if it has run its course, or in the case of novels, they reached their ending - doesn't mean the secondary texts always will go in the same direction, and will never change emphasis.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 04:42 pm (UTC)Indeed. Go read this journal entry, scroll down a bit to the letter about 1602, and boggle. This is where I was banging my head on my desk in embarassment at being a Magneto fan, especially since I'd already tried to tell this person to wait until after all the issues were out before she went around making accusations. And you'll notice that I turned out to be right in the end when I said Magneto would probably turn out to be secretly Jewish anyway.
That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard since the tinhats swore that Ian McKellen was working with New Line to keep Elijah Wood and Dominic Monaghan in the cloeset.
Because Our Ian is so likely to be bullied by the studio into keeping actors in the closet. Right.
(On the other hand, he'd be likely to respect the wishes of an actor who wanted to stay there - but then he probably wouldn't boldly declare that they were straight in a public place, as I believe he's done in the case of Elijah and Dominic.)
But I don't think this was because any of the (quickly changing) writers "hated" any of the characters, or was deliberately out to ruin them.
Yeah - that really doesn't tend to happen on TV, whatever people might think. Why would a TV writer want to deliberately destroy a character? They have no reason to.
You have to go to very strange fandoms like those for comics that have been running thirty or forty years to see that level of childish behaviour from a handful of creators.
The reason this can happen there is that most current comic writers grew up reading this stuff as kids. If you really hated, say, Cyclops when you were twelve, maybe having him put into your hands as an adult is just too tempting for some people.
On the other hand, you have people who have been writing comics for twenty or thirty years, who are bitter about what other creators have done with their stuff, and behave like jerks for that reason. Either way, comics fandom tends to be the exception to a lot of usually sensible rules.
(Including the 'don't ignore canon you don't like' one. I'm certainly planning to ignore the canon that says Charles Xavier is forty-one *g*.)
Even if the primary text is finished and done with - i.e. if it's a TV show, if it has run its course, or in the case of novels, they reached their ending - doesn't mean the secondary texts always will go in the same direction, and will never change emphasis.
In my experience, fluidity tends to be the only natural state of fandom. I wish more fans would realise they can use this to their advantage, instead of bewailing that things a) never change or b) have changed too much.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 10:51 pm (UTC)Yes. Actually, I thought it was very creative of Neil Gaiman not to try for an Holocaust equivalent by letting him be the survivor of a massacre, but going for the "kidnapped, baptized and not returned to his people as a child" story instead, which actually happened more than once in Italian history and is a far better period-related backstory trauma.
On the other hand, he'd be likely to respect the wishes of an actor who wanted to stay there - but then he probably wouldn't boldly declare that they were straight in a public place, as I believe he's done in the case of Elijah and Dominic.
So he did, on the audio commentaries for "Fellowship" in regards to EW and when some moron asked him on his website again there. You'd think that would have settled the matter, but no. Someone should warn Sabine that she'd better not make any statements regarding Mr. Wood's orientation in her lj, otherwise she's bound to have the wrath of the tinhats on her head...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-13 01:04 am (UTC)Absolutely - I was intrigued by Tom Lenk's performance during Season Six, since although he wasn't given much to do he did it very well indeed. (I think he may be the best actor of the Trio , which is a compliment to him rather than an insult to the other two.) It didn't take much Season Seven for me to get thoroughly attached to Andrew himself.
Of course, there are still plenty of people who find him annoying, but fandom will always be divided on these things. (I at least find this easier to understand than the number of people who dislike Buffy herself.)
Go for it! It is not for my sake that I ask, but for the sake of the fandom. Clearly, it is the will of the Prophets.*g*
It might take me a while to work out a plot - and it'll certainly be a while before I have time to write it - but obviously Sisko and Picard are destined to meet again and work on their issues. I must make it so. I'm thinking early Season Seven might be a good time, if only so Troi can run into Worf at the most awkward time possible. (Not that I have any ability to write either character, but the idea would be there.)
He probably really believes that. Even though Anna originally not choosing the Shadows and being reduced to a pod person should have illustrated the difference from the beginning, especially since she was someone he knew thanks to serving on the same ship together.
You would think so, but Morden seems to have a double standard where the Shadows are concerned. He makes an (implied) criticism of the Vorlons when he talks about them manipulating various races genetically, but doesn't seem to see anything wrong with what the Shadows do to the individuals they turn into pilots. I guess that's fanaticism for you. (And the more I watch Morden, the more I really believe he chose to serve them. Bet they wouldn't find any implant scars on him.)
Actually, I thought it was very creative of Neil Gaiman not to try for an Holocaust equivalent by letting him be the survivor of a massacre, but going for the "kidnapped, baptized and not returned to his people as a child" story instead, which actually happened more than once in Italian history and is a far better period-related backstory trauma.
Yes, it resonates much better as something horrible that really happened to Jews at the relevent time, and allows Magneto to get into a position of power. (As those of us defending Neil at the time the early issues were released also pointed out, he had to be more subtle in 1602. He was effectively much less powerful in a world not dominated by electronics he could disrupt with his powers.)
So he did, on the audio commentaries for "Fellowship" in regards to EW and when some moron asked him on his website again there.
Oh, right. I knew I'd read it somewhere.
Someone should warn Sabine that she'd better not make any statements regarding Mr. Wood's orientation in her lj, otherwise she's bound to have the wrath of the tinhats on her head...
Heh. I'm sure it would be fuelled by pure jealousy *g*. But maybe they could get her to just ask him 'hey, are you screwing that Dominic guy?' and settle the question forever ...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-13 02:13 am (UTC)It irritates me to the point of publically condemning the novel as non-canonical, because the whole point of the Shadows is that they do have an ideology, they aren't Teh Eval, and to balance the story some people should be working for them because they think it's the right thing to do.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-15 12:12 am (UTC)Thank you for the warning - that's one tie-in I shall definitely stay well away from. What an awful idea. I could buy Morden having some kind of sad story in his past that lead him to be inclined to believe the Shadow recruitment speech, but not that he joined up because of something like that.
It irritates me to the point of publically condemning the novel as non-canonical, because the whole point of the Shadows is that they do have an ideology, they aren't Teh Eval, and to balance the story some people should be working for them because they think it's the right thing to do.
Indeed. The Vorlons managed to persuade Lyta to their way of thinking, at least until Kosh II started behaving like an abusive arsehole toward her. It makse sense for there to be a Shadow equivilent of Lyta - to whit, Morden.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-13 02:48 am (UTC)Yes, you must!
I'm thinking early Season Seven might be a good time, if only so Troi can run into Worf at the most awkward time possible. (Not that I have any ability to write either character, but the idea would be there.)
If you want a better handle on Troi, try the TNG episodes Loss (Deanna temporarily loses her emphatic abilities - this is actually a good sci-fi exploration of what it means for a telepath/empath to lose their psi sense) and Face of the Enemy (Romulan Intrigues). Oh, and A Fistful of Datas is great fun and my favourite for Troi/Worf interaction, which isn't romantic at this point; also, love that Deanna doesn't want to be the "girl" in the Holodeck Western but goes for being the stranger with no name instead.
But maybe they could get her to just ask him 'hey, are you screwing that Dominic guy?' and settle the question forever ...
Ah, but no matter what he'd tell her, they could always claim he was just indulging her and telling her what he thought she wanted to hear...
no subject
Date: 2004-10-13 02:09 am (UTC)I don't know - the rumours going around that Cordelia was made the villain in the fourth season of AtS because the production team were angry with the actor for getting pregnant (and possibly for whatever caused her break from the production the previous year) have a ring of plausibility.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-13 02:41 am (UTC)Moreover, given that according to Tim Minear in the Succubus interview immediately post-season 4, Cordy originally was supposed to embody the Big Bad throughout and they only came up with Jasmine as a separate character very late, when CC announced her pregnancy, I don't see how they could have planned the villainy as a "punishment".
Lastly, I don't see the ME team as that petty, but that's of course just a subjective estimation.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-12 02:29 pm (UTC)Umm... I don't like Sam... Didn't like him in the books and - even though his "It's like in the old stories" monologue in TTT is one of my favourite scenes in the movie - didn't like him in the films. *quietly sneaks away*
Re: shipper persecution
Are you familiar with the X-Files fandom? There *every* ship is "underappreciated". Of course, because of the dominance of Mulder/Scully, most ships really are underappreciated (or even hated in the case of Doggett/Scully or Mulder/Fowley), but there is one popular Mulder/Scully board where people regularily complain about how Teh Evol Slashers are taking over the fandom. Even when something like 90% percent of all the fic in fandom seems to be Mulder/Scully.
And of course everybody hates Chris Carter because he a) hates Mulder and Scully so much that he ruined them by writing them into brainless love-bunnies, or b) hates Mulder and Scully so much that he wouldn't give them more shippy scenes.
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Date: 2004-10-12 10:01 pm (UTC)Sam: I should have known there is an exception to every rule.*g* Still, I maintain Mr. Gamgee isn't underappreciated.
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Date: 2004-10-12 04:45 pm (UTC)Love this definition-- although I fear this is more of a How It Should Be than a What It Is...
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Date: 2004-10-12 09:57 pm (UTC)"Heroes don't accept the world as it is."*g*
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Date: 2004-10-13 02:35 am (UTC)You're eminently quotable. And quoting, too.
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Date: 2004-10-13 12:15 am (UTC)This isn't to say "the canon is always right". It is to say, though, that in almost any other narrative form, we tend to praise the endings that surprise us, that don't do exactly what we'd expect, and don't fulfill all of our wishes. Nobody would say that Hamlet should live because we like him, or Ryabovitch should find the woman who kissed him and live happily ever after, or Isabel should leave Osmond for Lord Warburton. (OK, I think Isabel should leave Osmond for Lord Warburton, but I'm still glad Henry James didn't write it that way.) And when writers do tweak endings or other details due to reader response (as Dickens was known to do), it's generally seen as a Bad Thing.
Now a TV series isn't exactly the same thing as an Elizabethan tragedy or a Victorian novel. But storytelling is storytelling, and it's preposterous to think that fans should have some kind of veto over the direction the story takes, when we'd scorn such concerns in another medium.
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Date: 2004-10-13 12:22 am (UTC)Otherwise, yes, exactly.
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Date: 2004-10-13 12:42 am (UTC)I've often cited Lord Warburton as the reason I'm not a James heroine. Put me in Isabel's shoes, and that's a very short book, in which Lord W and I live happily ever after. As if.
Shifting gears back to the persecuted minority complex in fandom -- being a die-hard Riley fan, I certainly know the feeling. But honestly, I know as many individual fans who like Riley as ones who don't -- but somehow there is the perception that everybody hates him. It's like when I went to college and everybody I met was a political liberal who swore the entire campus was conservative. In fandom as in live, certain points of view just make more noise :-/
I can't spell
Date: 2004-10-13 12:43 am (UTC)