Some C.S. Lewis, a lot of Buffy and Faith

[selenak]

Got this through melymbrosia's lj: a great discussion about C.S. Lewis' use of religious allegory in the Narnia novels, here. Since I didn't read the Narnia novels as a child but as an adult, at a time where of course I saw the allegory, the question of perceiving it as a betrayal, or not, didn't pose itself, so I don't feel in a position to argue about it. I wonder, though, whether future generations will see Philipp Pullman's use of religous allegory as a betrayal? Of course Pullman's beliefs are the opposite of Lewis', but an agenda is an agenda, and to me it would smack of hypocrisy to basically say "allegory in children's novels is fine as long as I agree with the author's belief system".)

Mind you, between Susan's fate and That Hideous Strength, the entire novel, I have my own set of Lewis disagreements, but then when I read The Arabian Nights where the happy ending is Sheherazade convincing the sultan that really, this serial killing of women because his first wife cheated on him ought to stop, then living with this Arab Bluebeard in wedded bliss, I'm not exactly sharing all the values of the unknown author(s), either. Incidentally, today's New York Times has an (admiring) article on C.S. Lewis here, which among other things points out that:

Nevertheless, Lewis acknowledged that religion easily becomes a device to exploit others (...). The pretense of piety, he said, has left a record of violence that should shame every honest believer. "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst," he wrote in "Reflections on the Psalms."

No matter how you stand on Lewis' use of religious allegory in the Narnia novels, that's one sentiment we can probably all share.

On a completely different issue, I found myself pondering Buffy and Faith, and the difference I see between canon and fanon.



It was and is, to me, a fascinating relationship. But every now and then I come across a remark on a message board or in someone's livejournal, or a story, which makes me wonder whether we watched the same episodes. Reminds me oddly of fanon about Blake and Avon, for some reason (and makes me wonder whether the Faith and Buffy canon begins and ends with Sanctuary). Here's a list of the fanon perceptions which I disagree with most:

1) Buffy never gave Faith a chance and by withholding her friendship drove Faith into the Mayor's arms.

Buffy starts out uneasy, territorial and not so secretly envious about Faith's apparent freedom and easiness with everyone in Faith, Hope and Tricks, true. But the relationship doesn't end there - not even within the episode itself. One of the ironies of this episode is that Faith's attitude is revealed as very much bravado, masking her fear and desperation. While the other Scoobies take Faith's carefree wild girl act for the genuine article, Buffy does realise this, and the episode ends with the two of them starting to bond. That doesn't mean they immediately become best buds, or that Buffy ever stops feeling competitive. Nor does Faith, for that matter, and no wonder - they're both alphas. In subsequent episodes, we see the two of them fighting together, training together, and going out together. You can read this with slashy subtext as a courting dance, or you can read it as a growing friendship, but there is still no proof of Buffy rejecting Faith's company or behaving stand-offish.

The first disruption comes when in Revelations, Faith, manipulated by Gwendolyn Post and armed with the basic information that Angel, last seen trying to end the world, is back, tries to stake him, leading to a fight between the two Slayers. Now the episode was undoubtedly very important to Faith's descend, but imo mostly because of Gwen Post, supposedly her new Watcher, using her and mocking her as an idiot. After seeing the close relationship between Buffy and Giles, Faith would have been inhuman not to want something like this for herself, especially since she lost her previous Watcher in a brutal way. To be dissapointed like this had to be traumatic. (BTW, Giles' utter disinterest in Faith beyond her slaying abilities is why I personally blame him more then Wesley for what was about to happen - he had months to establish a relationship with her, and never did.) But again, I don't see how Buffy, who ends the episode trying to talk to Faith about what happened, is being distant, calleous or stand-offish here. Yes, in Amends it's Joyce who gets the idea of inviting Faith for Christmas, but Buffy when Faith correctly guesses this clearly feels guilty for not thinking of it herself. Consequently, in The Wish, it's Buffy who tells Xander and Willow that all of them should spend more time with Faith who has started to take off by herself (something also mentioned in Helpless). Then we arrive at the crucial Bad Girls and Consequences, but that's another point. To sum up: Buffy in their early relationship did not reject or exclude Faith.

2) After Faith accidentally killed Allen Finch, Buffy immediately condemmed her and made no attempt to help her, thus driving her in the arms of the Mayor.


This would be my major "which episodes were you watching?" gripe. Because in the Bad Girls and Consequences I own and have rewatched countless times, I saw Buffy reaching out to Faith again and again, trying to talk with her about what happened and getting, forgive the bad pun, rebuffed. I also saw Faith trying to frame Buffy for Finch's death with Giles. And I saw Buffy, after this and after Faith had almost killed Xander, still determined that Faith should not be handed over the the Council and that they should all continue trying to help her. It's Willow, not Buffy, who asks "Why?" and from this point onwards thinks Faith should be locked up, full stop. Not so coincidentally, in Doppelgangerland, an episode which confronts Willow with the darkness within in an entertaining but in retrospect ominous way, it's again Willow who calls Faith a psycho and Buffy who points out that "it could have been me". (Which Willow denies. If there is a character thinking in black-and-white terms here, it's Willow, not Buffy.) Buffy takes the "Faith needs help" position as late as This Year's Girl. In the conversation immediately after the Scoobies learn Faith has awakened from her coma, we get the following statements: Xander thinks she ought to be in prison (and honestly, who can blame Xander at this point), Willow thinks prison is too good for Faith, Giles suggests handing Faith over to the Initiative, an organization he distrusts and protected a vampire, Spike, from only one episode earlier. Buffy is the only one not only worried about but for Faith, proposing that maybe Faith doesn't even remember, or does remember and is out there alone and sorry, and in any event should be helped, not put in prison. Conclusion: to say that Buffy turns her back on Faith immediately after the death of Finch and never tried to help her is a gross distortion of canon.

3) What did Faith do that was so wrong anyway?

Or, the Faith-the-Misunderstood argument. Forget about Buffy, you're selling Faith short if you follow this road. Faith's storyline was very powerful precisely because she did go into that dark night, and not gently at all. Finch's death was an accident, but it's significant that Faith reacts as she did to the death of her first Watcher, with panic and denial. Arguably Buffy was in a similar position when she thought she killed Ted in Ted, before learning he was a robot, but did not go the denial road. (The even stronger parallel is with Katrina in season 6, of course.) Denial with Faith leads to first trying to blame Buffy for what happened, then to attempting to rape and kill Xander, then to going to the Mayor. Even if you put this all on the aftershock of Finch's death, it's still a pattern damaging to both Faith and the people around her, a pattern she doesn't break until much later: the complete inability to accept responsibility, the "might was well go the whole road" bravado, and the venting of unwelcome emotions on those weaker than her. Faith's next step is when the Mayor arranges for Willow to be killed; it takes her aback for a moment, but she doesn't do anything against it. Not that Faith has any particular reason to like Willow, but that's not the issue; she's present when the murder of another human being is arranged, and doesn't do anything about it. Then we get to Enemies, with Faith willing to unleash an incredibly dangerous psychopath and mass murder, Angelus, on the world just to get back at Buffy. Not to mention being willing to torture Buffy who up to this point hasn't done anything to her except a) being the older Slayer who apparently has everything, and b) trying to help Faith. (If you take the subtext reading, of course, then Faith is also going for violence between them as a replacement for unavailable sex, but that still doesn't make Faith less responsible.) A few casually killed couriers and assorted demons later, we get to the season 3 finale. At which point Faith kills human beings when the Mayor tells her to without even wondering why (the Vulcan, err, Vulcanologist in the teaser of Graduation Day) and has no problems writing off the entire population of Sunnydale High as food for the Mayor after his transformation. Compare this to Faith's dream in This Year's Girl, with her and the Mayor having a lovely harmless father and daughter picknick interrupted by stone faced killer Buffy who pursues her without any provocation or relenting, and you get how deeply Faith was in denial, and how far a way she had to go.

The body switch in season 4 becomes Faith's great turning point, the first time she does not run or deny at a crucial point - when she returns to the church to help the people inside instead of getting away at the airport. It's a major, major step, but it comes after what it is yet another act in the earlier mentioned pattern. Faith taking over Buffy's body, consigning Buffy to prison or whatever the Watchers have in mind, casually skewering Tara verbally on the way just because she can, fits with the running away and venting on those weaker. The confrontation with Buffy-in-Faith becomes at once the greatest possible projection and the start of a breakdown of the pattern because when Faith-in-Buffy beats up her own body in an outpouring of self-loathing, it's clear whom she means when she says "you ruined everything". At the end, she does run away again, and it's good storytelling for her to do so, because Faith can't come back from what happened, what she did, within a single episode. Her final breakdown in Five by Five comes after torturing Wesley. Again, you understand Faith's emotional motivation for this; she wants to drive Angel into killing her (which would be the final escape), and she does blame Wesley for failing her in Consequences. Understanding Faith, however, doesn't have to mean excusing her. Torture is torture. And I loved the scenes with Faith and Wesley in season 4 of AtS precisely because of this backstory, which to simplify into "Wesley had it coming because he wanted to hand Faith over to the Council in Consequences is… just as wrong as saying "Faith never had done anything wrong and it's all Buffy's fault". To sum up Faith's crimes: Murder, attempted murder, attempted rape, attempted torture, torture, and attempted mass murder. Yes, there was something to make up for.

4) Buffy is a hypocrite, unable to admit her similarities with Faith

Buffy can go into denial in a big way herself, but when it comes to her relationship with Faith, this isn't a label which really fits. I already mentioned her "it could have been me" statement to Willow in Doppelgangerland; her arguments with Faith in Bad Girls and Consequences also can't be simplified this way. Acknowledging that slaying gives her a rush, which Faith tries to get her to do, is one thing, and I think Buffy saw and feared that part in herself which is also capable of venting frustration through violence in Faith as early as the scene in Faith, Hope and Trick when Faith beat up the vampire long after defeating it. These are two truths that Buffy has to learn to deal with via Faith as her shadow self in season 3. But Faith's suggestion that Buffy secretly enjoyed getting presented with Angel-as-a-psychopath during the Angelus months couldn't be further of the mark. Fandom might have found Mr. Leather Pants sexy and thrilling, but there is not a single scene in season 2 to suggest Buffy did. And Faith's crucial argument in these episodes, that being the Slayer justifies some killings along the line because of the greater number of lives they save, gets rejected by Buffy in even in her own period of greatest darkness, in season 6.

Then there is the willingness to kill a human being. I don't think Buffy kids herself about her ability to do this in Graduation Day when she decides to go after Faith. Talking to Xander about Willow in Villains, she says that killing a human changes everything - "believe me, I know". I don't think she's referring to the Knights of Byzantium here. However, the knife she stuck into Faith doesn't lead Buffy to conclude that from this point onwards, she is licensed to kill humans left and right, now that she's done it once already. Which is another difference between the two of them.

Both Buffy and Faith draw a part of their shaky self-esteem from being the Slayer, albeit in slightly different ways. (Being a Slayer means something quite different to Faith in season 7 than it did in season 3, and the same is true of Buffy.) Which in turns feeds in both their rivalry and their understanding of each other. Sometimes, you see yourself in another person and it becomes unbearable; sometimes, it can be a lifeline. I absolutely loved the scenes between Buffy and Faith in season 7, because due to both of them having gone through their respective journeys since they last met, they can at last come to terms with each other. No, not via an immediate hug and not without some emotional and literal bruises at first. But they can see each other without projecting, and there is an understanding which to me surpassed anything since their shared dream in Graduation Day and Buffy kissing Faith on the head in silence afterwards. I defy anyone to watch the very last exchange between them in Empty Places, or their conversation in End of Days, and still come with the above named charge of Buffy being unable to see their common ground.

5) Faith deals so much better with being the Slayer, so Buffy should just step aside already

Faith is an excellent Slayer, able to fight alone and to take charge of a group, combining instinct and planning. In season 4 of AtS and season 7 of BtVS. Not before. In her first year as a Slayer, she went to pieces. Now whether this also would have happened if Faith had been the one and only Slayer instead of "the other one", i.e. if there had been no constant comparison with Buffy, is arguable. Based on Faith as we see her in her first episode, i.e. before Buffy could be an issue in her development, I'd say it probably would have happened regardless, but am ready to concede that if Faith had gotten someone like Giles as her only Watcher back then, it might not have. Ironically, Faith and Wesley made a great Slayer-and-Watcher team… after they both had been to hell and back. I'd say Faith's development as a Slayer starts with her decision to go the church in Who Are You, goes along with her road to redemption as she turned herself in to the police in Sanctuary, thus breaking (as it turns out, forever) with her pattern of running away, and passes a trial by fire in her three season 4 of AtS episodes. The Faith who returns to Sunnydale isn't just an adult woman but a mature Slayer, with the last test being her ability to work with Buffy in a team. (Just it's crucial for Buffy as a person and a Slayer to be able to work with Faith.) But just where in canon we see that Faith is "better" at being the/a Slayer, especially before this last year, is beyond me.


6) Buffy is a complete bitch for not forgiving Faith

Back to my maltreated equine: no matter the issues between them, Buffy was all for helping Faith…until the body switch. (Yes, I'm aware she was willing to kill Faith in between, but that wasn't about forgiving or not forgiving Faith and would not have happened in any other circumstances than the poisoning Angel/blood of a Slayer ones. At this point, Buffy's feelings for Faith are still hopelessly muddled but generally pro-Faith, and the kiss on the head after trying to kill her is emblematic for this.) That - taking her body away - was the one thing too many. Now it's regrettable that Buffy reached her limit with Faith just when Faith was starting to turn around. But while Buffy in Sanctuary is arguably Buffy at her worst, I still understood why she acted the way she did. Being forced out of your own body can, among other things, be interpreted as mental rape. Moreover, all Buffy knew when she arrived in Los Angeles was that Faith had tried to kill Angel again, and then she stumbled upon what must have looked like a direct replay of Enemies, only this time for real. Lastly, it usually gets overlooked that even at this point, when she wants to see Faith in prison, Buffy is willing to risk her life to protect Faith, something that Angel, for one, does not trust her to do. Yes, Buffy angrily says "if you apologize to me, I'll beat you to death" to Faith in the basement. But on the roof, when the Council's hit squad starts shooting, Buffy's instinctive reaction is to cover Faith with her body and then try and fight the attackers off.

When they meet again in season 7, forgiveness or the lack thereof isn't any longer an issue between them. In between, Faith has proven that she did change, and Buffy has gone through her own night of the soul. I don't think either party expects or even wants an apology. Actually, what imo both of them find most difficult is forgiving themselves… and this, too, they come to terms with.

Comments

[astrogirl2.livejournal.com]

Actually, I do share Pullman's beliefs (at least in broad outline), and I personally find the religious allegory in His Dark Materials a lot more heavy-handed and annoying that I do Lewis' (although the books are quite good in a few other respects). This, however, does seem to be a genuinely Unpopular Opinion. *shrug*

And I agree with you about Faith and Buffy to such an extent that (probably because, much as I love the show, I can't really be said to be part of Buffy fandom), I'm rather surprised to learn that there are people out there who disagree. Or, well, no, I guess I don't, because I've seen enough fans of other characters who've done bad, bad things making those kinds of excuses for them. Personally, I think trying to make a morally damaged character out to be a saint is a real disservice to them. Poor, Misunderstood Good Girl Faith is surely a flatter, less complex, less interesting person than the real Faith. Not to mention that painting her in that light surely just serves to cheapen the remarkable moral journey that she does make.

Oh, btw, you seem to have a mangled end-italics tag in here somewhere... Just FYI!

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

I really love the last paragraph of The Amber Spyglass, but yeah, a lot of Pullman's rage against Lewis expressed in interviews really frustrates me, because I think Pullman falls into the same rhetorical and aesthetic traps, just arguing for the other side. I too agree with Pullman on religion (or am closer to Pullman than Lewis anyway), but I think he fails his story by making it propaganda in places. And as with Lewis this is very frustrating to me as a reader because so much else about the story is so good.

Pullman and Lewis as Soulmates *g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

a lot of Pullman's rage against Lewis expressed in interviews really frustrates me, because I think Pullman falls into the same rhetorical and aesthetic traps, just arguing for the other side.

Exactly my feelings. Twins separated at birth, these two (and a couple of decades).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Poor, Misunderstood Good Girl Faith is surely a flatter, less complex, less interesting person than the real Faith. Not to mention that painting her in that light surely just serves to cheapen the remarkable moral journey that she does make.

Precisely. Faith is a great character, and her storyline is a remarkable one. Both are denigrated by these simplifications. But that's the strange thing in several fandoms: people fall for complex, ambiguous characters and then proceed to whitewash them into the kind of one-dimensional heroes or victims they claim to despise. See also: Fluffy Victim Methos, Weepy Misunderstood Avon (this specimen arrives complete with Bully!Blake). Pfff.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

You need to close an italics tag after "Graduation Day."

I agree with practically all of this. I do think that Faith *perceives* rejection from Buffy at various places, which may contribute to some of the fanon issues you've been seeing. For instance, I'd argue that "Revelations" is the start of Faith's tragedy not simply because of Gwendolyn Post's betrayal but because Post cleverly exploits Faith's feelings of exclusion and inferiority. She speaks of the Buffy/Giles/Scooby gang as keeping secrets from her and by extension Faith, which makes Faith hyper-sensitive to being left out of the other revelation of Angel's presence. When Xander reveals Angel's back to Faith, rather than realizing that Buffy kept Angel's presence from everyone and that Faith isn't being specially excluded, Faith seems to feel just left out and as if Buffy is unfairly prizing Angel over Faith's offered friendship--you can see this also when Faith attempts to talk boyfriends and Buffy flinches away from talking about Angel, and of course it's only emphasized by the fight *over* Angel in the episode's climax.

have corrected the italics (I hope)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I do think that Faith *perceives* rejection from Buffy at various places, which may contribute to some of the fanon issues you've been seeing.

That's likely, and I agree with you about Faith's pov on the events of Revelations.

[minim_calibre]

Being forced out of your own body can, among other things, be interpreted as mental rape.

And in this case, was very much played/written as such, down to Faith using Buffy's body to have sex with Riley. It's shown especially in "Sanctuary" when Buffy says, Anything you could take from me you took. I've lost battles but nobody else ever made me a victim.

Thank you for writing this.

You're welcome.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I've lost battles but nobody else ever made me a victim.

Yes, I was thinking of that quote as well. I remember that at the time, a lot of people questioned how what Faith had done could make her feel like a victim when Angelus' deeds did not, even saw the body switch as something of a harmless prank. Which ignores the sense of violation, loss of identity and what we take for granted, possession of our own body.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Outstanding observations about Buffy, Faith & their relationship throughout the seasons, Selena.
I've always been quite annoyed by the more simplistic views and those fans claiming the (euphemistically put) B/F problems stemmed from one-sided abuse, so your most insightful and well-written clarification was a special pleasure to read. Thanks!

Love the icon!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And you're welcome.

[lakrids404.livejournal.com]

So Buffy/Faith is not canon?!
:)

I know, hard to believe *g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Actually, given the show's end, it seems much more likely than either B/A or B/S...

Re: I know, hard to believe *g*

[cuvalwen.livejournal.com]

Xander: Buffy and Faith are in the library getting all sweaty.
Cordelia: They're training.
Xander: I stand by my phrase.

Homecoming

Fascinating article. I love proper analysis, so much out there is along the lines of 'I like it becasue it's great' or 'I hate it because it sucks'. What happened to proper academic standards? ;)

With regards to your opening remarks on C. S. Lewis and Philip Pullman, I was going to recommend ajhalluk, but I see you're way ahead of me...

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Wonderful analysis, I very much agree. I may enjoy Faith as a character a little more than Buffy, but I respect them both for their long, hard journeys. Both are guilty, and both have suffered and survived. To make Buffy out as a bitch and Faith as merely a victim is to do a disservice to two very complex and interrelated characters.

(BTW, Giles' utter disinterest in Faith beyond her slaying abilities is why I personally blame him more then Wesley for what was about to happen - he had months to establish a relationship with her, and never did.)

Totally agree here. I love Giles in S3, but he definitely fell down on the job here, and I don't think he ever recognised his own guilt even as he and the gang blamed Wesley for Faith's defection. I don't see how any reasonable Watcher could let a traumatised teenage girl live in a motel with no vamp protection and "immoral liasons" going on next door. Even a Slayer needs a decent roof over her head, and some adult guidance.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I love Giles in S3, but he definitely fell down on the job here, and I don't think he ever recognised his own guilt even as he and the gang blamed Wesley for Faith's defection.

No, I don't think he ever did. The irony is this: Wesley had about 24 hours as Faith's Watcher. He made a mistake when deciding she should be handed over to the Council, but he reacted according to his training, and how else do you expect someone out on their first job to react? Giles, on the other hand, had years of experience, and months during which he was Faith's de facto Watcher... and completely ignored her as a human being. Watch the scene in Homecoming when they all wait for Buffy and Cordy to appear. Giles says hello to Willow and Xander, but not to Faith when they pass each other.

I don't see how any reasonable Watcher could let a traumatised teenage girl live in a motel with no vamp protection and "immoral liasons" going on next door. Even a Slayer needs a decent roof over her head, and some adult guidance.

Absolutely. Mind you, I think Faith would have staged a token "I can live by myself" protest, but if Giles had offered her to live at his apartment, she'd have accepted. Judging by the way she reacted to the Mayor, if Giles had offered any sign of concern or affection, she'd have taken to to it like a duck to water, and presumably then she would have agreed from the start when Buffy suggested to tell Giles what had happened in Bad Girls.

[lynnb.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for your brilliant analysis of the Buffy/Faith relationship. It was thoughtful, objective, and insightful, as all great analysis is. And it shows that people who actually don't believe this are not thinking objectively, but just trying to justify their hate/love for one character or another. I'd like to tell them that it's okay to like or dislike whoever you please, but it doesn't help to denigrate another character or distort what actually happened to make your case.

Thank you...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...and yes, exactly. Ironically, people do their favourites a disservice by trying to whitewash them or turn every conflict they're involved in into an opportunity for bashing the other side. I love Faith, as I see her on screen. The Faith I find in a lot of fanfic isn't nearly as interesting. And this is true for characters from other fandoms as well...

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

I foudn the link to this post on buffyfan - well written!

[andraste]

Fascinating examination of the whole Buffy-Faith (or Buffy/Faith - I can see it either way) thing. It occurs to me that people running Buffy down in order to build Faith up is much like running Blake down to build Avon up ... and it does all of them a disservice.

BTW, Giles' utter disinterest in Faith beyond her slaying abilities is why I personally blame him more then Wesley for what was about to happen - he had months to establish a relationship with her, and never did.

I love Giles, but I find it interesting that his reluctance to act as a parental figure in Season Six and Season Seven is seen as out of character in many circles, when it seems to me that it was a well-established personality trait in the early seasons too. I hadn't specifically connected this to the way he related to Faith, but you're quite right.

Giles was always deeply ambivilent about acting in loco parentis to not only his fatherless Slayer, but also Xander and Willow whose fathers where hardly adequate role models. Buffy is the only one he seemed to want as a surrogate child, and he even has misgivings about that. I can see why he might resist adopting Faith as well, even though it's a great pity he didn't take a greater interest in her emotional health.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It occurs to me that people running Buffy down in order to build Faith up is much like running Blake down to build Avon up ... and it does all of them a disservice.

Yes, exactly. And you'd think that even if they dislike Buffy and Blake respectively, they'd see that they're not doing Faith and Avon any favours.

And I'm still awaiting your grand Giles post.*g*

[andraste]

And I'm still awaiting your grand Giles post.*g*

You may be awaiting for a while yet *g*. I really should go back and look at at least the key episodes from all the seasons, which would be something of a long-term project. Your point about Faith has just made me realise just how complex the evidence is.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I totally thought I'd commented on this, but no! I haven't. It's brilliant. I'm always at such a loss when dealing with people who think that Buffy gave up on Faith. I just sputter and go, "Wha...?" It's nice to see all the logic and facts laid out.

Ahem

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Ironically, Faith and Wesley made a great Slayer-and-Watcher team… after they both had been to hell and back.

If you're Quentin Travers, possibly ;-)

It obviously depends on whether orpheus was the only substance capable of knocking out a vampire, which is not clear, but the S4 Wes/Faith relationship strikes me as very far from healthy. From Wes's side, it mostly comes down to Wes manipulating Faith out of a combination of ill-feeling over her torturing him, deep-rooted problems with women as seen in Billy, and his usual tendency to take the most morally ambiguous possible action to show off how pragmatic and unsentimental he is. From Faith's side, it comes down to her taking it because at that stage she wanted to die and thought that no torture could be worse than she deserved.

Re: Ahem

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

YES YES!! IT Totally Pisses me Off what Wesley did.

WEsley: "She Knew the risks"

Lorne: "Oh she couldn't!"

Wesley and Faith clearly have switiched roles and Welsey is clearly now the saddist and torturer....just because he did it more subcinsciusly with a drug and under the guise of saving Angel doesn't make it fucking right!! Sorry I feel really strongly about all this.

Okay but...What about how it all ended?

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

What about how it all ended? With Buffy refusing to realize that Faith did not betray her when everyone else asked her to leave and not Faith. What about Buffy punching Faith in the face because Faith was able to connect to the potentials and Buffy was not? And my personal favorite: What about Buffy allowing Spike to believe that it WAS Faith's fault that Buffy left her house? And then not exactly saying how wrong it was when Spike offered to kill Faith? Buffy sure wasn't going to let any friendship develop between those two, even if she wasn't sure as to whether she wanted Spike for herself or not. Not that a lot hasn't happened for Buffy to be upset with... But, this was just my problem. Buffy just didn't give either Spike or Faith enough in the end for me....and she alienated them from each other. Meanwhile, Angel gets a big kissy-kissy and Buffy never reminds Willow how she "went crazy and started killing people." I do agree that Faith and Spike are fully responsible for their mistakes with Buffy. But, she never reached out and forgave them as she did with others. Maybe it's just because I like Faith and Spike so much..but it pisses me off... and it made me glad to see her go off the Europe or wahtever.

again, we seem to have watched different episodes

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Because I didn't see Buffy punch Faith because Faith could connect to the Potentials. I saw Buffy punch Faith because Buffy was at the end of her tether, tired, exhausted, after having been just trashed again by Caleb and feeling guilty as hell because of Xander, and because Buffy came across a scene that looked like Faith had taken the Potentials and Dawn into a fight with the police for the fun of it. Which was of course not what happened, but would have been in character for the Faith Buffy remembered.

As for Buffy refusing to acknowledge Faith didn't betray her in EMPTY PLACES - during the quarrel itself. And frankly, given her emotional state at the time and everything that went on, that's understandable. Afterwards, when Faith came after her, Buffy did not lash out at her but asked her to take care of everyone. And she meant it. This gesture of trust would have been impossible between them earlier. When in END OF DAYS Amanda suggests that they were punished for following Faith, Buffy firmly rejects this and points out the same thing would have happened to either of them. She does not claim leadership automatically, and it's no coincidence that during the entire conversation with Faith afterwards, the scythe rests between them (after Buffy has handed it over to Faith). Equality, and an expression of trust. Given that Buffy isn't big on trust ever since season 2 and the Angelus days, the fact that she did come to trust Faith and Spike despite her earlier history with either is, to me, a much more powerful statement of her feelings than if she had given Faith a "you rock" speech. THAT is how it ended between them.

As for Buffy "alienating" Faith and Spike from each other: please. They had hardly met. No, Buffy wasn't thrilled when she saw the two of them in the basement, but she would have been inhuman not to think "Angel...Riley... not AGAIN". However, she did not say anything, nor do anything. And in TOUCHED she did explain "it wasn't Faith, it was all of them" (i.e. who deposed her as leader). Otherwise, and given that the fallout with her friends had just happened, and an apocalypse was at hand, I very much doubt that she gave another thought to what Spike thought of Faith or vice versa. I doubt Spike gave another thought to Faith, or Faith to Spike, for that matter. They all had other priorities.

Buffy treating Willow different from Faith: she has a completely different backstory with Willow. Willow had been there for her for five years as a best friend and ally before going darkside, risking her life and sanity to help Buffy again and again during those years. Faith she had known for some months before Faith did the same thing. Now I don't know about you, but I think these five years together would have made a difference to me, too.

Things I saw: Part One

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

Well, Buffy, of course, has her good points. She is the main hero of Jossverse, and she's earned it. I think she is a much better person than Angel, the guy she choses to fixate on... I know, I know, she sent him away and tols him she couldn't be with him. But, it was clear that she couldn't be with him at the moment and really gave him so much more than she gave Spike, by leaving it open. Maybe it just comes down to a matter of personal preffrence in who you side with. It depends on the type of person you like better.
Personally I can't stand self-righteuosness and authrotative people. These are huge qualities that both Angel and Buffy pocess no matter what wonderful things they have done. I think Buffy is sort of a tragic figure in a way, because she wasn't self-righteous or authorative when she started out. It was clear these are the dark (or good depending on how you feel) qualities that came out of being the Slayer. Maybe that would happen to anyone. But, it still ticks me off. I sit around and I try to figure out why I am so upset at Buffy and why I was never really angry with Faith because of the things she did, even though I knew they were so wrong. (I know, this is not a good sign.)
I think that it may be that Buffy came from a clear place of privledge from the start. She had all these people that cared about her, a roof over her head, she could go to school ect. Along comes Faith, (and people think Im crazy) but despite her roughness she was a very warm person. She was all go-team! She was open to Buffy, and thought it was awesome that there were two Slayers. She wanted to be everyone's friend, and I think hitting on Giles and sleeping with Xander was the ways in which she tried to be their friends. Of course, her ways weren't healthy ones. But, we see Buffy then decide to go along with Faith because she is feeling wild. Buffy then shuts the Scoobies out and goes with Faith. She repeatidly does that with everyone. She doesn't want to share the scoobies which is something that Faith could have really benefited from. Then Faith accidentally kills what's-his-name. I understand Buffy freaking out, but she does take a stance that this is all Faith's fault. She never said: "Oh this is was an accident." I agree with you in that she DOES want to help Faith at this point. But, she is saying: "Okay, Faith we had our wild time, and it went wrong. Let's go back to the grown-ups now and get help amd pay-up and admit that YOU were wrong."
Really, Buffy knows that her behavior was wrong too, but she focuses it all on the killing, and tells Faith to go back to the adults and get help. Buffy doesn't realize that this is a luxury that Faith never had. She couldn't just act out and then go crawling back to adults for help. This is the way that she lived her life. I know that another 17 year old girl isn't going to understand all of that about another 17 year old girl, but it is still unfair. That doesn't mean that what Faith did was right. But, I think if Buffy had been a more uncompetitive person, who didn't WANT to be special and suprior things would have went differently. It was sad Buffy didn't have that trust and that she really only used Faith to be a "bad girl." I can totally see how and why that happened and I'm not about to blame a teen-ager for doing that...Im just sayin'
But, then there is older Buffy...Part 2

Things I saw: Part Two

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

I guess it just annoys me that I feel Buffy indeed has dark qualities, and no one acknowledges them accept for Spike, who also loved her and never made her responsible for them. Yet, Buffy was constantly reminding Faith of her dark qualities when she came back. And I must say I disagree with your two counters: Buffy was stressed when she hit Faith but she didn't hit Faith until AFTER Buffy started kind of making fun of Faith for being friends with the potentials : "So, I don't braid their hair" "Or learn their names" Faith said, and then started saying there names. THAT was when Faith got punched. Because she could do something that Buffy couldn't, and yes, of course stress had something to do with it, but sorry, not a good enough excuse for me. And that Buffy giving Faith the Sickle while she was totally injured in bed, wasn't exactly a sign of trust. Didn't you notice the look on her face when Faith said: "It feels like it's mine." The "expression" Buffy was having was what caused Faith to say: "Which probably means that it's yours...There's only supposed to be one Slayer. Maybe that's why we can never get along."
This is where Buffy reminds Faith that she "went crazy and started killing people." The reason I love Faith and not Buffy can be summed up by how Faith responds: "Well, there is that" She neither grovels nor tries to make excuses for what she's done. Faith maybe be guilty of worse crimes but, she admits her faults and tries not to dwell and does what she can do to make them better. Buffy can't do this. She's too busy thinking she has to be perfect. She uses other people to go through he dark phases (Angel, Faith, Spike) Because she can't admit she has any darkness. Didn't you notice how in "Get it done" she refused to take in the demon the old Watcher guys offered, but then admonished Spike to act more demon-like. She wants other people to do the dark part for her...no wonder she can feel superior! She puts too much pressure on herself to be all-good. Maybe this is why she could never forgive or fully accept Faith in the first place. She holds Faith to her own impossible standards because Faith is also a Slayer. I think that this is probably a good sign that this is a really well written show. (No kidding) But, I think all the things that I am pointing out are there. But, someone can decide that Buffy is entitled to be this way, and maybe she is. I personally just don't like it. That's why I think Im so obsessed with wanting that "Faith" show w/ Spike, because I want to see Faith get her due for HER good qualities that she has worked so hard for.

Re: Things I saw: Part Two

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Sorry, in a rush, with limited net access and hence briefly:

1) Buffy refusing to admit any darkness in herself. Not true. I behaved like a monster is a direct quote (from Conversations with dead People). Telling Xander that she knows what it means to kill (humans) (in Villains) wasn't talking about her inner bright side, either.

2) Buffy not wanting to share the Scoobies with Faith in season 3. Also not true. In Faith, Hope and Trick maybe when they meet. But to repeat a point I made earlier, later on we see Buffy hanging out with Faith AND the Scoobies at the same time in the Bronze (Homecoming and Revelations), and Buffy explicitly tells Xander and Willow they should spent more time with Faith in The Wish.

3) Telling Spike he used to be a better fighter and to access that part in himself and not accepting more demon from the Prime Watchers are two completely different things. What those guys were trying to do was a violation. They did not ask her - they chained her up and in a fairly explicit visual metaphor set her up for rape. What she asked Spike to do, otoh, was accessing what he already had. She did not force him to let himself be filled/raped by something from the outside.

Feeling superior: don't forget the second part. Feeling inferior, beneath them, to use another direct quote. Imo Buffy's self-loathing is just as large as Faith's.

Re: Things I saw: Part Two

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

I know that the prime watchers demon thing was a violation. But, there were different ways that she could have reacted. She could have taken it in and made clear that it was a violation, but she did it to save everyone. I'm actually happy that she didn't take it in. I think it was the right choice. But, she could have said something to Spike about how she couldn't take it in, and that she needed to rely on him, and that she could realize how hard it was to be living with a demon, but THANKS! It was the way she asked him that was wrong.
She does admit to doing wrong things and feeling dark occasionally, but then she behaves like she is still superior. Saying "it could have been me" but then making a face when Faith says the Sickle feels like it's hers, and reminding her of her mistakes cancels that out for me. Maybe for some people it is enough, and they think Buffy has a right to all her feelings, considering she is the person that has made the least mistakes. I guess it is just hard for me because I know that Spike and Faith are these people that desperately want to be loved by her and are trying to earn it, and she throws them crumbs but then doesn't give them enough. I think what she said to that vampire "I didn't want to be loved" was always true, because the only one she ever gave herself to was Angel, the guy with the love learning disability. So, yes she obviously does feel inferior, and she reacts to that by getting all superior, much like the love of her life. Maybe they really do belong together, making them the real tragic figures.

Do you think Buffy did anything wrong to Faith? If not, why do you guys want a Buffy/Faith relationship. It would just be Faith begging for love and forgiveness, and Buffy giving her crumbs of it and then shitting all over her. Didn't we already go through this with Buffy/Spike? Maybe it'll still be a turn-on for people being that Faith is a woman. But, I think that both Spike and Faith deserve better, as I really believe in redemption. That's why I want Spike/Faith. Maybe people just want Buffy/Faith for the hotness factor, but I'd have to re-do the whole 'Ship in my mind because with the way I see it I'd be sick. Besides, Buffy would NEVER be able to admit any of the attraction she felt towards Faith. It took her a whole episode to deal with Willow being gay even though it had been obvious for a month. Faith picked it up in a second.

Re: Things I saw: Part Two

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Some of the things you're talking about are really matters of perception and the way we look at the characters. For instance, I never saw Buffy make a face when Faith said the Scythe felt like hers. In fact, I thought Buffy's face was pretty neutral, and when Faith came to the conclusion it was therefore Buffy's, Buffy corrected her, saying it belonged to the Slayer. Also, the mention of Faith's less-than-stellar past was followed immediately by more identifying and comfortable conversation between them. By "End of Days," Buffy and Faith were treating each other as equals.

As for whether I believe Buffy ever did anything wrong to Faith, I'd say yes, trying to kill her was indeed wrong. There were also plenty of times when Buffy probably could've dealt better with Faith, but considering that many of those things took place when Buffy was only seventeen and eighteen, I'm not going to be too hard on her. No one's perfect. However, most of the blame for how things went has to be laid on Faith. Ultimately, the bad decisions she made were her own bad decisions, and she took responsibility for them. For that, I respect her.

Perception

[strangebint.livejournal.com]

Well, this is where we can become crazy fans and look at the episode and freeze frame her face... I m not going there. It is all a matter of perception. I think it says a lot about a person in how they perceive these things. I don't know what this says about me. Hopefully, it doesn't say I'm a spiteful sociopath. I think they purposely leave these things open. Like when Buffy said "It belongs to the Slayer." Did she mean it belonged to both of them, or that she was the real Slayer? I think Buffy did come around in the end with her idea to share the power with all the potentials and that was the point... That she had to come around and see that it was about sharing her power. I still think that she really got a thrill over being in charge, which I would normally like in a female character. I think the reason that I didn't like it in her was because she just isn't a straight forward person by nature. Also she shuts people out and has no clue about what is going on with them emotionally.
Faith and Spike are incapable of doing these things. Even when they were evil they didn't really shut people out. They were obsessed with Buffy, it wasn't really about them wanting power. It was about them wanting her... Also, they always know what is going on with people emotionally. We saw Faith shoo Dawn away when she was asking too many questions of Buffy about Xander's eye. These are the people I'd rather spend my time with.
But, maybe it's more than that. I kind of see Spike and Faith in the same boat. They both love Buffy. Whether you want to say Faith loves Buffy in a sisterly way or a sexual way is up to you. But, Buffy can never love them. And I think if any people are worthy of love it's the two of them and not Angel. Perhaps, my resentment comes from the whole Angel thing. I hated Angel and Buffy as a couple from the start. Angel was the only person that Buffy let in, and not to mention she let him take charge a lot. Spike and Buffy worked together as a team way more than Angel and Buffy. I know Buffy sent him away in the end, perhaps realizing that he would try to take charge or that she would be too distracted with him there. But, in the end she gave the guy more than she gave anyone else, and he was the last one who deserved it from her... So, no more Spuffy for me and no Buffy/Faith... Unless they come in and write an episode where Buffy makes a decision to open herself to them, which I doubt will happen. It isn't in character, and SMG is being too much of a bitch to make time in her celebrity life to do an episode. Don't get me wrong I love Buffy, I just don't like her when it comes to her relationships ... funny that is how I feel about Angel too. I look back and I realize that every episode where Buffy annoys me she has a boyfriend (including Spike.)Maybe it's me. I have some friends who annoy me when they have boyfriends.

[mgs.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree with everything you say, in fact I think all right thinking people would. Taking any of these attitudes is pretty much guaranteed to ruin a fic for me. But there are other issues that are much fuzzier.

What did Faith really want from Buffy? Was it only acceptance and friendship or did she want a romantic relationship? There are plenty of canon hints that this might be the case.
Personally I find Morgaine's vid to She Bangs to be a convincing argument. And this leads into what exactly is Faith's sexuality? I think the whole slut persona is partly another facet of the bravado mask. You certainly can't prove anything but I find interesting the possiblity that she basically thinks men are for just fucking, and women are for serious relationships. Then there is, does Buffy have any clue that Faith might feel this way? And, how much of Willow's hatred of Faith is based on Faith's actions and rivalry for Buffy's friendship, and how much is jealousy for feelings that nobody is admitting at this point?

Anyway, much as I enjoyed the Faith part of seventh season, I think it would have been more interesting to have these undercurrents still present in the Faith/Buffy relationship. And,
it was one of my great disappointments that we didn't see the Faith/Willow conversation on Angel. That can't have been just "There's trouble in Sunnydale, we need you there." There has to have been some sort of touching on the degree to which they hated eachother and how they can work together in spite of that. There's absolutely no sign of their previous history once Faith gets to Sunnydale.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Considering that the FE-as-Mayor told Faith that she always wanted Buffy to love her, and Faith didn't disagree, I'd say that Faith's feelings at least became as canonical as they could.

As for Buffy, bear in mind that she equates her relationship with Faith and her relationship with Spike in her mind when she talks with him in END OF DAYS. (When she tells him they should just stop with the defensiveness and the mixed signals - "I have Faith for that".) However, I don't think Buffy in seasons 3 and 4 was aware. (See also her being clueless about Willow and Tara before Willow says something, as opposed to Faith who spots it at once.) She certainly did understand that Faith was conflicted about her, not just friendly (pre-Consequences) or hostile (after), and was confused herself (hence the kiss on the head), but I think Buffy needed to go through the Spike experience to, in lack of a better term, get a clue about Faith.

Willow: possible that it wasn't just rivalry for the "best friend" status. (Though Willow wouldn't have been aware pre-Tara, either.) I've read fanfics that convincingly interpreted it this way, and certainly Willow's hostility towards Faith was extraordinarily strong, though to be fair one could equally interpret this as being about Faith nearly killing Xander. (Willow does not forgive or forget anti-Xander actions.) Like you, I'd have loved to have seen a scene or two where Willow and Faith talked about the past.

Morgaine's vids, especially "She Bangs": fantastic, aren't they? And I agree about the interpretations.

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

((here from mutant enemies))

Fascinating, insightful post. Thank you very much for writing it. I have to admit preferring Faith over Buffy (Faith has a great vitality, and Buffy always seems a little too Puritanical for me) but you reminded me of a big part of why I love Faith -- her character is complexly dark, understandably so, just like New!Wesley's is. Making her either a vixen or a victim just falls into the cliches the portrayal of her character actually avoided. I think a lot of that is due to Eliza Dushku's performance -- she always made it easy to see the vulnerability under the brashness.

moi

[rosiew.livejournal.com]

gah! no words. I worship the ground you walk on *g*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I love those two, and it always annoys me when what's fanon is confused with canon, because the relationship is really interesting and complex in the later...