Once upon a time 2.17 Welcome to Storybrooke

[selenak]

In which we get the first non-Emma centric flashback to take place in Our World instead of FTL, and what a flashback it is. Also, a lot of things are made clearer.



Another great episode. At first, I thought I would have one single complaint, to wit, that Snow is entirely passive and silent, only glimpsed from afar, when after the major thing she did last episode I desperately wanted to know how she felt about it, not just how everyone else did. But then towards the end we got the two scenes where she speaks, first with Gold and then with Regina, and so that complaint vanished into thin air as well.

With that said: not only did the episode fill us in on a lot of things - the immediate aftermath of the Curse being cast in the newly created Storybrooke, Maine, how exactly the Curse worked pre Emma's arrival (anyone other than Emma coming to where Storybrooke is during Curse time from the outside sees nothing, though this makes me wonder how baby Henry was brought into the town, the town, except for Regina and non-FTL born characters, literally repeats every day, and oh, we also get clarification on the difference between Curse-Mary Margaret's personality and Snow White's, i.e. that the lack of initiative and passivity is the direct result of the Curse; presumably this holds true for the difference between Curse-David Nolan and Charming, too), how Regina wanting a child started. And of course who Greg Mendel is, but more about that later. This is the first Regina-centric episode since a long while; as long as her mother was around, Regina was in a secondary role there. And it's narratively fitting that the first episode after Cora's death deals with Regina in the past and present examining her personality.

That Regina after enjoying the initial rush of having won and having everyone obey her, seeing her opponents miserable, would start to get confused and bored because this victory did not make her happy, nobody even knew she did it, and Snow-turned-Mary-Margaret wouldn't even fight back because the Curse took that away from her makes sense; Regina in this situation latching on the two outsiders accidentally caught up in Storybrooke because they were camping in the forest when the Curse was cast and specifically on the boy who likes her (the last child, btw, who at this point in Regina's time line immediately took to her and liked her was little Snow White, irony obvious) even more so. And of course the result is that you have Regina simultanously at her worst (let's not forget that through all this the late Graham/Huntsman not only serves as her heart-controlled enforcer but gets raped on a regular basis), attempting to force the unfortunate Flyod to stay in Storybrooke the moment he makes it clear he wants to leave, and at her best, letting the first person who presented unforced affection to her in years go.

(Sidenote: I'm assuming Flyod is dead; if he's still alive he could have ended up in the insanity section of the hospital during curse time, but the Curse has been broken for months now, and presumably he'd have left then if he was still around. As so how "Greg Mendel" knew that he finally could re enter Storybrooke, I have no idea, but I expect we will find out. Right now, I choose to blame/credit Pinnoccio, because precedents.)

The parallels to her later relationship with Henry are obvious, and speaking of Henry: trying to get rid of magic as a way to prevent Regina and his other family from killing each other was inspired, though of course not practicable. But it's endearing he tries to fix the situation himself and won't take either family member's death as a solution. Moreover, in retrospect you can see Henry from transitioning from the s1 world view that everything will be fixed if the heroes triumph and the curse is broken to the more complicated s2 situation. As learning adults have shades of grey goes, finding out Emma lied about Neal isn't, from our pov, as serious as finding out Snow just tricked Regina into killing her own mother, but one prepares for the other, not least because from Henry's pov, given his Regina-caused issues about parents lying, the former is serious, too. But note he doesn't react with rejection, he tries to solve the situation for everyone. And note that Emma, who (as opposed to Regina, most of the time) does learn from her mistakes, tells him about the Snow and Cora thing when he demands the truth instead of trying to shelter him as Charming and Neal do. (Go, Emma!)

I had been wondering after the last episode whether the show would have Henry burst in in order to prevent Regina from trying to kill Snow immediately after her mother's death, but nothing so obvious. Not at the start, and not at the end. I'm going to write a Snow White, Regina and Cora meta post once the season is over - in the past week, I rewatched some of the relevant bits from s1, and wow, the identical phrase "the choice is yours" that Snow uses when handing Regina the heart is used by Regina when she gives Snow the apple, and there are a lot of neat parallels between the scene of Cora manipulating little Snow White in The Stable Boy and Snow's conversation with Regina in The Miller's Daughter - but not yet, because each episode brings more fodder. So the "Henry would never forgive" argument is used and discarded by Regina herself when Snow White comes to her at the end of the episode and offers her her own heart to crush (of course it would be this method of killing offered, I love how the show does the whole heart symbolism); and instead, Regina's reason for putting Snow's heart back in is that she thinks the prospect of self destruction is now there, now that Snow has committed her first murder/manipulation and has become a bit more like her. Misery loves company, indeed. (And of course Regina is still arrogant enough not to consider Snow might not do the whole self and family destruction thing Regina herself keeps doing to herself.)


Other bits and pieces: the scene with Regina and Rumpel at Cora's grave was fascinating on several levels. I think this is the first time Rumpelstilskin actually behaves not only non-hostile towards Regina but says something without manipulating-to-his-own-ends intent. Though he still managing to be condescending: "Sometimes you just have to cut your losses" is rich, coming from Mr. I Ruined Lives Over 300 Years While Engineering A Long Term Con, as is pointing out that you have to accept you can't have everything (again, coming from the man who made sure magic would be at his disposal in the world without magic where he wanted to reuinite with his son, so he'd have both, magic-power and Baelfire. A classic case of do as I say, not as I do, is Rumpelstilskin. And yet, the very fact he is actually reaching out to Regina instead of gloating and mug remarks a la "and if you're very lucky, you'll be invited to dinner" which he said to her at the end of Queen of Hearts, is a big change of behaviour. What became of Regina is partly his responsibility (as well as her own, of course! and Cora's), so I like to think this is him acknowledging that. Plus, of course, he has a red rose to depose, and Regina is the only other person who had the loving and hating Cora experience herself. And, um, trying to kill her by proxy. Regina when thinking Hook had killed Cora for her also brought her mother a red rose. So her and Rumpel both bringing their red roses for Cora felt uniquely appropriate.

So "Greg Mendell" is the kid planting the seed in Regina that eventually led to her wanting to adopt a boy. I did not see that coming before this episode, but I had a suspicion Regina started to bond with his younger self. (This still doesn't explain how he had her current day cell phone number, but I await further revelations.) It's karma in the best way - by doing whatever she ended up doing to his father, Regina presumably will end up causing the outside world coming to Storybrooke, as well as carrying on the pattern of generational feuds - and yet the effect the boy had on her also made her adoption of Henry possible, which in turn is what causes her flickering attempts to break her patterns.

More trivia: loved the very 80s Springsteen reference - "New Jersey, home of the Boss" indeed - and Regina of course not getting it and thus later asking whether Flyod wants to return to "the Boss". Also, Regina not yet being able to cook directly after arriving in our world whereas 28 years later she's an expert makes sense.

Snow asking Rumpel how one lives with oneself and his reply "you tell yourself it was the right thing to do, and after a while, you even start believe it" - also, in addition to his initial scene with Regina, gets points for being an actually not self serving and honest statement, pointing out as it did his own tendency for self justification.

Comments

[grimorie]

I've been waiting for your review! :)

I look forward to your meta on Cora, Regina and Snow. I very much agree on the parallels between those three. I'm getting the sort of sense that maybe the darkening of Snow might lead to a version of the 'Snow Queen' story within the show. Maybe a future AU since I don't think that's something the writers will do permanently.

Snow asking Rumpel how one lives with oneself and his reply "you tell yourself it was the right thing to do, and after a while, you even start believe it"

This scene with Rumple made the alarm bells ring in my head. One thing I love about Snow is how self aware she always is about the things she's done, to her detriment.

It occurred to me that immediately after her discussion with Rumple, Snow goes to Regina precisely because she doesn't want to live with herself and to believe that how she engineered Cora's death was the right thing to do.

Also, Regina putting back Snow's heart seems like the moment she will come to regret. Regina never learns, but Snow does and unlike Regina she never once played the 'Suffer as I have suffered card'.

the last child, btw, who at this point in Regina's time line immediately took to her and liked her was little Snow White

Irony indeed! Especially since young!Snow was really the only child who wanted to love her unconditionally.

[selenak]

I'm getting the sort of sense that maybe the darkening of Snow might lead to a version of the 'Snow Queen' story within the show. Maybe a future AU since I don't think that's something the writers will do permanently.

*nods* Yes to both. A flash forward to a possible future would do the trick, and that's one genre device they haven't employed yet. And in s1 the show introduced the possibility of opening a brief window to the past (how Regina got her poisoned apple), so opening a window to the future (or rather, A future) should within this 'verse be possible, too.

This scene with Rumple made the alarm bells ring in my head.

Well, I didn't mean it was good advice. Just that it was an honest answer (a rare thing in Rumpel world), and not in a manipulative honesty way. It really is how he lives with himself, and he doesn't say it's not self deceptive. Mind you: one reason why I think he's simply being honest is that he has no emotional investment in Snow White, either positive or negative, now that he doesn't need her anymore. The whole guarding her life thing is because Charming pointed out he owes her, but if he'd shown up too late and Regina had gone through with killing Snow, it wouldn't have mattered to him, either. (Whereas I think he's a bit invested in Emma now, and not just because she's his unexpected sort of ex daughter in law or because she used to be the key to his plans. He likes her, which, this being him, automatically would make anything he says to her in such a situation more suspect than what he says to Snow, not less.)

It occurred to me that immediately after her discussion with Rumple, Snow goes to Regina precisely because she doesn't want to live with herself and to believe that how she engineered Cora's death was the right thing to do.

I think it's also because she doesn't want to live with herself in the way he does. Or in the way Regina does. Regina is her most obvious example of how you can go from good to evil and inflict horrible things on people left right and center while still telling yourself anything is justified because of your own sufferings. The conversation at Granny's when Regina says to her that she wasn't the Evil Queen before Snow made her so and maybe she was the good one being but the most recent case in point for that example of warped reality sense. And Snow's "good doesn't do what you did" reply is on point and both why she's struggling now and why she's not into self delusion - she knows your actions define you, not your self justifications.

Now the challenge for Snow is to live with herself without going the way Regina (and Rumple) did, and because she saw the results up close and at good length, she has a chance. But I like that the show doesn't simply present it as a given. One of the many appealing things about their version of Snow White is that she's not good because she can't think of anything else to be, or doesn't have it in her. It's a matter of choice.

Irony indeed! Especially since young!Snow was really the only child who wanted to love her unconditionally.

Another reason why I am delighted about the Owen/Greg revelation is that you now have the fairy tale number of three - three children whose impact on Regina, and vice versa, is crucial for the overall story. And yes, it's the irony that the first child was the one who loved her unconditionally (though to be fair, younger Regina was also easier to love, but I think Snow did not stop until the aftermath of the non-execution, i.e. some of that affection survived the entire Evil Queen reign, despite the considerable anger and disappointment that had accumulated by then) whereas the later ones have their key impact on her by turning their back on her and leaving her.

It occurs to me that one reason why Regina is both good and bad with children is that in many ways she never emotionally grew up - which often happens with abused children - and so you have both to readiness to bond with them in a way she couldn't, power issues aside, with adults - and the way she keeps imagining there is a way to get/keep love without having to share.

Lastly: early in this episode I idly wondered why Regina never tried to take Snow's heart before, not to kill her but to control her. That never seems to occur to her. And then we had the scene where she's increasingly angry at Mary Margaret's meekness and that Mary Margaret apologizes to her when Regina was the one in the wrong and we get the "you won't even fight back?" outburst. And I think there is the answer. Mary Margaret under the curse is already no opponent anymore, and much as that's supposed to be payback, it also is galling because it's so un-Snow. If Regina controlled her via the heart, there would be nothing of Snow White left, and precisely because of all that history, I don't think Regina could cope with that. (The Curse!Storybrooke was at her disposal. Until Emma's arrival, she would have killed Snow or had her in a coma as well - anything but see her every day.)

[grimorie]

I would love a flash forward! Because that is a possibility! I'd love to see a dystopian future with Snow as the Snow Queen!

I don't know if he doesn't have any investment in Snow, he seemed a little interested, even as an experiment with Snow turning dark ever since 'Heart of Darkness' but also, what I've gotten from their interactions was: the more they interact, the more Snow and Rumple seem to speak to each other more candidly.

I think its because after her first meeting with Rumple she's never under the illusion that their relationship was nothing but transactional. David took a while to catch up but even in the pilot, Snow's always knows that every meeting with Rumple means a deal was to be made.

And Snow's "good doesn't do what you did" reply is on point and both why she's struggling now and why she's not into self delusion - she knows your actions define you, not your self justifications.

You're right, this is actually pretty consistent with Snow. She's even mentioned this in Heart of Darkness: Words mean nothing to her but actions does. And her actions in The Miller's Daughter was not something she was proud of.

One of the many appealing things about their version of Snow White is that she's not good because she can't think of anything else to be, or doesn't have it in her. It's a matter of choice.

Agreed. I'm just so happy how she's so self-aware and with everything that's handed to her its amazing she only broke now and that was with some very handy push. Snow's been living in a very high octane environment for the past few months (for Snow) crammed together with a lot of mundane years (Mary Margaret) that she's still trying to reconcile. According to Jennifer Morrison (Emma) its only been four months for Emma since everything happened that's a lot to happen in such a short period of time.

I think what the Storybrooke 1980s showed was that Regina doesn't want Snow gone gone. I think she needs Snow around to focus her hate and anger. I've also noticed, like you have, that in a lot of ways Regina seems so much younger than Snow emotionally.

Snow was forced to grow up in a very young age and I think that helped her a lot being so self aware, while Regina's emotional growth was stunted by her mother.

I've rewatched the pilot recently and key Snow episodes and Snow is prone to depression and self blame. Every single time its either Red or David who bolsters her up, and when left to her own devices Snow does get cynical and bitter. I don't know if that helps any but it was something I noticed. Honestly, add this whole crew to a cast of characters who need therapy STAT.

I rewatched some of the relevant bits from s1, and wow, the identical phrase "the choice is yours" that Snow uses when handing Regina the heart is used by Regina when she gives Snow the apple

I should also mention, in The Queen is Dead Regina also uses 'the choice is yours' during Johanna's hostage situation.

[selenak]

Here's hoping for a dystopian flash forward and Ginnifer Godwin getting the chance to play the Snow Queen without the show losing Snow White!

I'm just so happy how she's so self-aware and with everything that's handed to her its amazing she only broke now and that was with some very handy push. Snow's been living in a very high octane environment for the past few months (for Snow) crammed together with a lot of mundane years (Mary Margaret) that she's still trying to reconcile. According to Jennifer Morrison (Emma) its only been four months for Emma since everything happened that's a lot to happen in such a short period of time.

No kidding. Which is yet another reason why I'm glad the show gave Emma and Snow that trip to FTL. Okay, it was dangerous as hell, but it allowed them to get to know each other as mother and daughter, not just Mary Margaret and Emma. (And it allowed Emma to see how amazing her mother can be when having her memories back!)

Snow was forced to grow up in a very young age and I think that helped her a lot being so self aware, while Regina's emotional growth was stunted by her mother.

Yes. You can see Snow still being somewhat young and naive when first meeting Red, directly after she's gone on the run, but not afterwards. The irony is that Regina pushing her mother through the mirror, which could have been an act of growing up and liberation, was not because it had been arranged by Rumpelstilskin, and Regina went straight from Cora to Rumpel as a manipulative mentor, and from being a daughter to being a wife and stepmother. Plus she had never lived on her own until after Leopold's death, when her Evil Queen persona was long since complete. Whereas the show gave Snow a big time span between the huntsman/Graham letting her go and her eventual defeat of Regina and her marriage, some of which she spend with friends like Red or the dwarves, some of which she spend on her own, and some with Charming - but if it was a rough growing up, it was a real and genuine growing up.

Re: phrases repeated by both Snow and Regina, there's also "where is my happy ending?" and "what did it get me?" - when Snow uses both, in the two episodes preceding The Miller's Daughter, it's a sign for getting to the point where she doesn't just want Cora dead but is ready to do what she eventually does to achieve it.

Oh, and another phrase: Rumpelstilskin in the pilot asks Snow, in "The Thing You Love Most" Regina and in "Desperate Souls" (I think, though it may be a later episode) Emma what they're willing to do and each one says "whatever it takes". (I don't think he asks Cora, but then Cora is the one doing most of the asking when they meet, which makes the relationship different from the one he has with everyone else.)

[grimorie]

Really hope that Ginnifer Goodwin does get the chance to play Snow Queen! She does a really good job in showing how terrifying she is by not raising her voice. She always sounds so *kind* when saying and doing the most terrifying things!

You're right about Regina never leaving alone, she's always had someone! Maybe that's in part why she's so desperate to have someone. Meanwhile Snow did go through a period where she was alone a lot (the bandit phase I believe, I would be tickled if they revealed that Snow was actually Robin Hood!).

Thank you for pointing out the parallels, especially with Rumple asking what they're willing to do. I'm curious what other parallels we'll uncover in the coming episodes! Speaking of parallels, I think you'll find <a href="http://goshdarncute.tumblr.com/post/20356882358>this gifset</a> interesting!

[masqthephlsphr]

I'm still not unconvinced that Rumple has set his sites on corrupting a new mother/daughter pair, Snow and Emma. For what purpose is unclear, since his motivations are murky now, post-Baelfire reunion. But there is the prophecied threat from Henry the younger.

[grimorie]

I wouldn't put it past Rumple to do so... he is prone to repeating his patterns. I've found that he's a little bit interested... or curious about how dark Snow could go and more than fairly interested in teaching Emma more about magic.

[masqthephlsphr]

Given Emma's physical reaction to doing magic during that scene last week where she was protecting Gold's shop (and Gold), I was having Rumple&YoungRegina flashbacks.... To a dismaying degree. Emma has insecurities and flaws of her own he could manipulate if it were in his interest to do so.

[grimorie]

I think, Emma does have her own insecurities and flaws and could be manipulated but I feel like she's a lot more grounded than all the other people around her, and whatever manipulations Rumple is planning will fail on that account.

[masqthephlsphr]

Indeed. He is just the sort of person Emma is instinctually untrustful of. Which has served her well.

[selenak]

That is a briliantly spotted parallel in your gifset!

Speaking of happy endings (not!), something else that came to mind not ony in this episode: while for Rumple, the "world without magic" part was the important bit of the curse, Regina when preparing to cast it by getting contributions from various FTL villains and when announcing her intentions at the wedding says it will be a world "without happy endings" for "you", meaning her opponents. As it turns out, the reason why there aren't any happy endings in Curse!Storybrooke is because nothing can end when everything keeps repeating itself endlessly, which I think really works as a metaphor as well. (As this is Regina's basic problem - repeating the same patterns.) She's trapped herself in the curse along with everyone else as she soon realises, but as long as she doesn't genuinely change, instead of only making temporary efforts, she'll never be able to be happy.

[grimorie]

They're so many similarities between them now and going through trajectories, ultimately, it will be down to choice where Snow will end up!

as long as she doesn't genuinely change, instead of only making temporary efforts, she'll never be able to be happy.

Exactly! And she keeps getting the easy way out! Regina isn't really for the long term planning, she's all about the instant gratification and that's not going to help her change! Also, as long as she doesn't realize how much she's hurt other people she will never get a genuine redemption.

[masqthephlsphr]

This also makes much more sense of why Jefferson was so *depressed* about his lot before the curse broke. It's one thing to live in a mansion next to a beautiful forest and be forced to watch your daughter raised by nice parents who aren't you through a telescope. It's entirely another to watch the same day repeat itself endlessly, and not even have the satisfaction of being the author of that curse, just another victim.

[ide_cyan]

He got Regina's current number from the label on Henry's backpack -- he takes a photo of it with his own phone when handing it back to Henry.

[selenak]

I just rewatched the relevant scene, and you're right. Well spotted! I had totally missed that.

[percysowner]

As of now, I don't think Greg Mendel KNEW he could get into Storybrooke. I think he may have made visits to the area (possibly annual ones on the date his father disappeared) to see if he could find the town. He knew it was there, he was just hoping that he could find it and see it again.

[selenak]

That's quite possible, in which case we can declare it destiny he showed up at a point where the town was accessible again. :)