In and out of canon: Women and Romance
Jun. 11th, 2003 10:08 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakA witty debate over at ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
andrastewhite's regarding regarding the do's and don'ts of romantic gestures between male characters in fanfiction (if said characters are to have any resemblance to their canon counterparts) got me thinking. Particularily alara_r's "it's not the penis, it's the characterisation". So, how about the girls and character-appropriate romantic gestures?
Jossverse:
Buffy: Early Buffy, in love with Angel, would be quite capable of giving him a present to indicate affection. She'd probably pick the wrong one and be horribly embarrassed about it. She can tell him "I love you" post-"Lie to Me", though it comes easier to her when she's upset. "The Prom" shows Buffy at her most young-teenager-like with the "Buffy & Angel Forever" scribblings in her school book which Angel discovers, but she'd never let him see that intentionally.
Buffy-with-Riley will not tell him she loves him. It's an important point in canon that she doesn't tell him. But I can see her trying to contact old non-Initiative friends of Riley's from UC Sunnydale to surprise him with a ticket to a game involving his favourite basket ball team, or something like this.
Buffy and Spike:wisteria_ wrote about the only season 6 story during which Buffy thinks of a present for Spike which I bought. Generally speaking, with the frame of mind and the emotional mess Buffy is in during season 6, I wouldn't believe any romantic gesture - the opening conversation of "Dead Things" where she compliments him on what he's done with his crypt is about as far as she'd go after they started their affair. So I suppose fanfic which has Buffy saying something nice to Spike in this roundabout way can be done, but not any more directly. Remember, her self loathing is a primary motivation during this period. Oddly enough, the most touching way of address canon gives us in this time frame is when she leaves him and calls him, for the first and only time, "William".
Season 7 Buffy is still trying to sort her Spike feelings out but, post-"Never Leave Me", can be credibly written to have genuine conversations with him, to tell him positive things about himself. What I never could buy in fanfic are the big "I'm so sorry for the way I treated you, and you're so infinitely wonderful that I should have seen what a lucky girl I was a long time ago" grovellings. Not just because of my own take on the Buffy/Spike relationship but because it's OOC for Buffy-the-stoic. "You used me." "Yes." That's canon to work with as far as verbal declarations of go; for affection, Buffy is more likely to express it through gestures like cleaning his face, the exchange of looks and the silent support at the end of "Showtime".
Which btw, works for any UC Buffy relationship was well. Any lengthy declaration of Buffy's burning desire/hidden love/whatever for Faith, and I'm out. On the other hand,minim_calibre wrote a quiet, convincing post-Chosen vignette in which the two get together, and "Willow is going to claim we owe her a toaster" is about as about as openly romantic as Buffy gets. What I could see her do as the big romantic gesture as far as Faith is concerned: give her Mr. Pointy. But certainly no flowers, cards, or cute animals.
Willow, on the other hand, offers herself to any fanfic writer who wants to go for cute presents and open declarations. No matter whether it's Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy (and in the fullness of time, I predict there will be non-hostile presentations of Kennedy in fanfic), or any UC Willow relationship, terms of endearment, snuggles, and soppy romantic things are all credible.
With Cordelia, it depends on the timeframe. Sunnydale Cordy would go for the silent gesture - see her having Xander's picture in her locker - and a compliment wrapped in an abrasive comment, but definitely not for open declarations of affection. Tender nicknames are definitely out. Also, she'd love to be taken out for dinner, but would not, by herself, suggest it. Early Los Angeles Cordy (i.e. season1-2) would be more likely to manage a compliment without the terse bit, but not on a regular basis. She'd still prefer gestures; Cordy, as opposed to Buffy, is definitely a buying-presents-quite-often kind of girl. Love letters and flowers though? Not so much. Around season 3 AtS I lost emotional touch with Cordy, as, it appears, did the writers, so the plausibility of later Cordelia in romantic context escapes me anyway.
Darla: giving her darling boy gypsies and precognitive Victorian virgins as snacks is about as romantic as she gets. Given how scornful she is of the lovey-dovey talk between James and Elizabeth, she and Angelus would never be caught murmuring sweet nothings to each other, and unless she's playing a part to lure someone in, I can't see her doing this withh someone else, either. What I could see her doing: brushing Drusilla's hair with a mixture of impatience and tenderness. Picking Angel's wardrobe throughout the entire time they were together. (Because really, it took him several decades to master something non-hideous on his own.) Asking Lindsey to play that Chopin record for her again. But that's as far as she'd go.
Farscape:
Aeryn: learns English for John on the show itself, which I think is the most Aeryn-like romantic gesture; and of course she gets him the TV and video tapes. But even with TalynJohn, I wouldn't declarations of love consisting of more words than "I love you". An story which has Aeryn paired with, say, Larraq, Henta, Crais, Zhaan or Chiana instead of John would have to do without any declarations of love altogether to convince me, since the story doesn't have the four seasons time-span necessary to bring Aeryn to the language-learning point.
Chiana: has no problems with sex but many problems with love. I think Chiana would go to considerable lenghts to avoid the L-word, no matter who her partner is... unless it's John. She wouldn't do the language-learning thing for either D'Argo or John, but she would come up with presents for both. Or favourite meals, remembering "Family Ties".
Zhaan: has the distinct advantage of the sharing Unity thing, which makes big gestures or declarations superfluos. But I don't see her as the presents/declarations type anyway, which is interesting considering that she's arguably the most verbal member of the original crew, safe Crichton.
Sikozu: is very verbal indeed but wouldn't be caught dead declaring her affection. Gestures, however, are important. (I'm thinking of her "would it help if I blow myself up, too" offer to Scorpius in "Terra Firma", the quiet acceptance in "Twice Shy" after the Scarran-side-display, and the silent kiss in "WSS: La Bomba".)
And none, but not a single one of the Farscape women would go for pet names. (That's Crichton's prerogative.) (Okay, Chiana calls Noranti "Wrinkles" in an affectionate manner, but...) (On the other hand, Chiana/Noranti has some basis because of "Bring Home The Beacon".) (I'll stop nowl.)
These are, of course, just some of the women in some of the fandoms, but I find that, exceptions like Willow aside, that the "feminisation of males in some slash" ought to be rephrased as a point of criticism, because clearly, these ladies are just as unlikely to work as vehicles for the full-blown romantic aproach. [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] andandrastewhite are right: it's about characterisation, not gender.
TOLKIEN MODERATE:
Live and let live is your rule of life. You like
Tolkien, you don't have any great desire to be
a deconstructionist or an iconoclast, but
neither are you going to tell anyone else what
to do in their fannish pursuits. In your
pursuit of moderation and keeping the peace,
you tend to end up getting flamed by the
extremists at both ends of the spectrum.
Tolkienology 101: What is Your Tolkien Belief System?
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Makes sense to me, though I'm afraid I answered the last question of this quiz buy going for a very unmoderate option, but I couldn't resist.
You are Raistlin Majere from Dragonlance.
You smirk, torment and look dashing in black
velvet. Ultimate evil magic powers are an
additional bonus.
Which Cool Evil Guy Are You?
brought to you by Quizilla
My brother made me read "Dragonlance" more than a decade ago, but despite the Middle-Earth rip-off and the outrageous flaws, I'm not sorry: Raistlin really is one intriguing character. Plus I have a thing for twisted sibling relationships. Go me!
Severus Snape, Potions.
Harry Potter Quiz: Which Hogwarts Professor Are You?
brought to you by Quizilla
andrastewhite's regarding regarding the do's and don'ts of romantic gestures between male characters in fanfiction (if said characters are to have any resemblance to their canon counterparts) got me thinking. Particularily alara_r's "it's not the penis, it's the characterisation". So, how about the girls and character-appropriate romantic gestures? Jossverse:
Buffy: Early Buffy, in love with Angel, would be quite capable of giving him a present to indicate affection. She'd probably pick the wrong one and be horribly embarrassed about it. She can tell him "I love you" post-"Lie to Me", though it comes easier to her when she's upset. "The Prom" shows Buffy at her most young-teenager-like with the "Buffy & Angel Forever" scribblings in her school book which Angel discovers, but she'd never let him see that intentionally.
Buffy-with-Riley will not tell him she loves him. It's an important point in canon that she doesn't tell him. But I can see her trying to contact old non-Initiative friends of Riley's from UC Sunnydale to surprise him with a ticket to a game involving his favourite basket ball team, or something like this.
Buffy and Spike:
wisteria_ wrote about the only season 6 story during which Buffy thinks of a present for Spike which I bought. Generally speaking, with the frame of mind and the emotional mess Buffy is in during season 6, I wouldn't believe any romantic gesture - the opening conversation of "Dead Things" where she compliments him on what he's done with his crypt is about as far as she'd go after they started their affair. So I suppose fanfic which has Buffy saying something nice to Spike in this roundabout way can be done, but not any more directly. Remember, her self loathing is a primary motivation during this period. Oddly enough, the most touching way of address canon gives us in this time frame is when she leaves him and calls him, for the first and only time, "William". Season 7 Buffy is still trying to sort her Spike feelings out but, post-"Never Leave Me", can be credibly written to have genuine conversations with him, to tell him positive things about himself. What I never could buy in fanfic are the big "I'm so sorry for the way I treated you, and you're so infinitely wonderful that I should have seen what a lucky girl I was a long time ago" grovellings. Not just because of my own take on the Buffy/Spike relationship but because it's OOC for Buffy-the-stoic. "You used me." "Yes." That's canon to work with as far as verbal declarations of go; for affection, Buffy is more likely to express it through gestures like cleaning his face, the exchange of looks and the silent support at the end of "Showtime".
Which btw, works for any UC Buffy relationship was well. Any lengthy declaration of Buffy's burning desire/hidden love/whatever for Faith, and I'm out. On the other hand,
minim_calibre wrote a quiet, convincing post-Chosen vignette in which the two get together, and "Willow is going to claim we owe her a toaster" is about as about as openly romantic as Buffy gets. What I could see her do as the big romantic gesture as far as Faith is concerned: give her Mr. Pointy. But certainly no flowers, cards, or cute animals.Willow, on the other hand, offers herself to any fanfic writer who wants to go for cute presents and open declarations. No matter whether it's Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy (and in the fullness of time, I predict there will be non-hostile presentations of Kennedy in fanfic), or any UC Willow relationship, terms of endearment, snuggles, and soppy romantic things are all credible.
With Cordelia, it depends on the timeframe. Sunnydale Cordy would go for the silent gesture - see her having Xander's picture in her locker - and a compliment wrapped in an abrasive comment, but definitely not for open declarations of affection. Tender nicknames are definitely out. Also, she'd love to be taken out for dinner, but would not, by herself, suggest it. Early Los Angeles Cordy (i.e. season1-2) would be more likely to manage a compliment without the terse bit, but not on a regular basis. She'd still prefer gestures; Cordy, as opposed to Buffy, is definitely a buying-presents-quite-often kind of girl. Love letters and flowers though? Not so much. Around season 3 AtS I lost emotional touch with Cordy, as, it appears, did the writers, so the plausibility of later Cordelia in romantic context escapes me anyway.
Darla: giving her darling boy gypsies and precognitive Victorian virgins as snacks is about as romantic as she gets. Given how scornful she is of the lovey-dovey talk between James and Elizabeth, she and Angelus would never be caught murmuring sweet nothings to each other, and unless she's playing a part to lure someone in, I can't see her doing this withh someone else, either. What I could see her doing: brushing Drusilla's hair with a mixture of impatience and tenderness. Picking Angel's wardrobe throughout the entire time they were together. (Because really, it took him several decades to master something non-hideous on his own.) Asking Lindsey to play that Chopin record for her again. But that's as far as she'd go.
Farscape:
Aeryn: learns English for John on the show itself, which I think is the most Aeryn-like romantic gesture; and of course she gets him the TV and video tapes.
Chiana: has no problems with sex but many problems with love. I think Chiana would go to considerable lenghts to avoid the L-word, no matter who her partner is... unless it's John. She wouldn't do the language-learning thing for either D'Argo or John, but she would come up with presents for both. Or favourite meals, remembering "Family Ties".
Zhaan: has the distinct advantage of the sharing Unity thing, which makes big gestures or declarations superfluos.
Sikozu: is very verbal indeed but wouldn't be caught dead declaring her affection. Gestures, however, are important. (I'm thinking of her "would it help if I blow myself up, too" offer to Scorpius in "Terra Firma", the quiet acceptance in "Twice Shy" after the Scarran-side-display, and the silent kiss in "WSS: La Bomba".)
And none, but not a single one of the Farscape women would go for pet names. (That's Crichton's prerogative.) (Okay, Chiana calls Noranti "Wrinkles" in an affectionate manner, but...) (On the other hand, Chiana/Noranti has some basis because of "Bring Home The Beacon".) (I'll stop nowl.)
These are, of course, just some of the women in some of the fandoms, but I find that, exceptions like Willow aside, that the "feminisation of males in some slash" ought to be rephrased as a point of criticism, because clearly, these ladies are just as unlikely to work as vehicles for the full-blown romantic aproach. [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] and
andrastewhite are right: it's about characterisation, not gender. TOLKIEN MODERATE:
Live and let live is your rule of life. You like
Tolkien, you don't have any great desire to be
a deconstructionist or an iconoclast, but
neither are you going to tell anyone else what
to do in their fannish pursuits. In your
pursuit of moderation and keeping the peace,
you tend to end up getting flamed by the
extremists at both ends of the spectrum.
Tolkienology 101: What is Your Tolkien Belief System?
brought to you by Quizilla
Makes sense to me, though I'm afraid I answered the last question of this quiz buy going for a very unmoderate option, but I couldn't resist.
You are Raistlin Majere from Dragonlance.
You smirk, torment and look dashing in black
velvet. Ultimate evil magic powers are an
additional bonus.
Which Cool Evil Guy Are You?
brought to you by Quizilla
My brother made me read "Dragonlance" more than a decade ago, but despite the Middle-Earth rip-off and the outrageous flaws, I'm not sorry: Raistlin really is one intriguing character. Plus I have a thing for twisted sibling relationships. Go me!
Severus Snape, Potions.
Harry Potter Quiz: Which Hogwarts Professor Are You?
brought to you by Quizilla
no subject
Date: 2003-06-11 09:30 am (UTC)And that, right there, is why I just can't buy blatant Spuffy PDA in fanfic. Kissing and groping in from of the Scoobies? Yeah, when she was under a spell with him in "Something Blue," but nowhere else.
I think my problem comes from the fact that most Spuffy fic assumes that Buffy has been secretly in love with Spike since she first got back from the dead in season six -- if not before. And -- having seen all of season six and seven now, that is just a scenario I can't buy.
The difference from me, between Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike is that, while Buffy fell in love with Angel, Buffy grew to love Spike. (Where she grew in love with him or not is open to interpretation.)
Precisely.
Date: 2003-06-11 11:16 am (UTC)And then there's the whole "in denial" thing. Not that Buffy can't have a remarkable ability for self-delusion on occasion, and she certainly was in denial about her sexual attraction to Spike, but like you, I don't believe stories who postulate she was in love with him since her resurrection.
(Sidenote: one of my Buffy theories is that she starts out as a romantic who certainly thinks she'd never have sex with someone she doesn't love. Which is why she tries to hard to convince herself she's in love with Parker, and that Parker isn't complete scum, after their one night stand. And she certainly believes herself to be in love with Riley during their relationship; whether or not she actually was is arguable. But with Spike, she was pretty clear on not being in love with him when she first became aware she was attracted, and that, once she was forced to acknowledge it, shattered that particular aspect of her self image.)
I love your phrasing here:
>The difference from me, between Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike is that, while Buffy fell in love with Angel, Buffy grew to love Spike. (Where she grew in love with him or not is open to interpretation.)<
Exactly. By the second half of season 7, he belongs to the people she loves like the Scoobies or Dawn. Whether she also is in love with him in the romantic sense is open to debate.
But it's very rare to find fanfics that allow Buffy to love Spike in a manner other than the romantic lightbulb suddenly going off in her brain. I thought Ascian did a great job with the post-"Lies my parents told me" story - in many regards (it manages to be fair to Giles, Wood, Spike and Buffy at the same time), but also in presenting the Buffy/Spike relationship at this point of the show.