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selenakMore Carnivale, though I just discovered I'm missing the very last episode of season 1 and that my (very gracious, and very generous) source has just sprung to season 2. Behold the mutters of "but... huh?" a couple of times during the season 2 premiere. But enough about that.
Justin in the asylum was a chilling and effective sequence, reminding me somewhat of the particular horror The Woman in White always held for me - the idea of someone sane imprisoned as insane. It also reminded me of how easy this still is in some parts. (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
artaxastra reminded me of it recently.) Just as chilling was the first time we see Justin use his powers deliberately to harm (excluding the neck twist he did as a child, because he was a small kid and frightened for his sister, so it doesn't really count) - when he whispers to the fellow inmate who later knocks himself against the wall in order to drown out Iris' voice on the radio. However, I am most gratified that we don't get a repeat of the Eeeeevil!Dukat scenario, with Justin emerging as the bent-on-nothing-but-EEEEVIL antichrist post-asylum. He might have accepted what he thinks is his role, but he's still desperately trying to be good. Which brings me to Justin and Iris. Now we did get a hint very early on - Justin catching a glimpse of Iris drying her hair - that his feelings aren't all fraternal, but he also clearly wasn't going to act on them and was ashamed of them. Cue self-flaggelation to expiate for them. So the fact that he reacted to her confession about having burned down the church and thereby killed the orphans with both shock and horror and an immediate and passionate kiss makes perfect sense. In that moment, she has become as tainted as he feels himself to be, and so he permits himself that outburst.
Iris' deed, of course, mirrors what she did as a child, when if Justin's projection/memory is anything to go by she nearly killed a helpless man she perceived to be a threat to them. The thing about Iris - whose Russian name, Irina, means peace if you take the Greek origin - is that she seems to be utterly free of doubts and the self-loating plaguing her brother. Or questions about good and evil. The end justifies the means, good is what is good for Justin, and his calling is the right one, full stop. I don't think the kiss surprised her, either. (She did hear the sounds of his self-flaggelation early in the season, after all.) The only other character on the show so secure about her/his aims and allegiances is Lodz. Which shows what a frightening thing this kind of certainty is.
(Also: It's probably very wrong to root for the siblings of doom to get it on, but you know, can't help it.)
Incidentally, when watching Ben's dream showcasing Justin and Iris handing out razor blades for the people to swallow reminded me that Ben's vision of Justin as uniformely malevolent (except for Justin's first appearance in Ben's dreams, when they both sit down in an identical fashion) is far more negative than the reality, whereas Justin's vision of Ben... but that brings me into season 2's opening ep which I'll discuss below, to spare Andraste spoilers. I also wonder whether the dreams both have are controlled by Scudder and/or Management.
Parents in this show, and their children: one tangled web. When Sofie sees the man bearing the tree tattoo raping her mother via her mother's thoughts/memories, I suddenly wondered which mystical figure she's supposed to represent. Because absent fathers with a sinister past clearly signify roles to play. Scudder is who knows where, and has a body count, no matter how fondly Ruthie remembers him. One assumes there is also a reason why Ben's mother went from being a cheerful laughing girl in love with him to the bitter fanatical and horrified-of-her-own-son old woman we saw in the pilot. Justin's and Iris' father is MIA, and if it's the Russian Soldier as Andraste surmises, well, then (see below on season 2 premiere thoughts).
Mothers, on the other hand, are ever present. Ben's mother dies in the pilot, but his guilty suspicion that he could have saved her haunts him throughout the season, and so it's not surprising that Ruthie, his mother figure just as much as his first lover (and she slept with his father, too), goes all Lazarus on him in the end. Sofie's mother is as immobile as Snow White in her coffin (though she once walks for Ben, and could he have saved her?), but she's ever talking to her daughter through her thoughts and in the end bleeds over in memories. And then there's Rita Sue, a walking, talking Earth Mother Sex-and-Fertility symbol, whose daughter resents her but imitates her down to the looks. Over in California, an overt mother figure is suspiciously lacking, though perhaps you could count Mother Church? (And then there is the lost Mother Russia.)
The whole Rita-Stumpy-Jonesy-Sofie storyline reminded me more of Edward Albee than ever. I maintain that Rita Sue = Martha, and Felix = George. Can so see Elizabeth Taylor playing Rita, too. I was afraid for a bit that they would set up a Madonna/Whore thing with Sofie and Rita Sue, but apparently not, thank God. Anyway, though Jonesy is a nice guy, I thought Sofie and Libby made the cuter couple.
Management.... on to the season 2 premiere which alas I saw without having seen episode 12 of season 1 for reasons named above. Andraste, avert your eyes.
Okay, Management as the Russian Soldier. That threw me a bit, but it fits. If the Russian Soldier is indeed the father of the siblings Crowe, it also fits with my WWI as key theory. (And I wonder whether the bearded guy handing over the gospel of Matthias to Justin was in fact Scudder himself in disguise, or an emissary of same.) Apparently neither Scudder nor the Russian Soldier could fulfill their roles, and now they want to use their children to fight it out, which makes them Abrahams in the Wilfrid Owen sense, using their sons and setting them up for the bloody slaughter via dreams and cryptic talk and the occasional catastrophe, teaching them to kill. In hoc signo vincero? Was that Constantine supposedly dreamt, and what caused him to make Christianity the state religion, thereby turning what had been the refuge of the disenfranchised and poor into a state institution. Because it gave him victory in a military battle.
At the end of the episode, we see Justin dreaming of Ben, for a change, and it's the most fascinating dream of all, Ben emerging under his own face. Immediately, I thought of Owen's poem Strange Meeting.
It seemed that out of battle I escaped
Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped
Through granites which titanic wars had groined.
Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned,
Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred.
Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared
With piteous recognition in fixed eyes,
Lifting distressful hands as if to bless.
And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,
By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell.
With a thousand pains that vision's face was grained;
Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground,
And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan.
"Strange friend," I said, "here is no cause to mourn."
"None," said the other, "save the undone years,
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
Was my life also; I went hunting wild
After the wildest beauty in the world,
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
But mocks the steady running of the hour,
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
For by my glee might many men have laughed,
And of my weeping something had been left,
Which much die now. I mean the truth untold,
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
Now men will go content with what we spoiled.
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress,
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery;
To miss the march of this retreating world
Into vain citadels that are not walled.
Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels
I would go up and wash them from sweet wells,
Even with truths that lie too deep for taint.
I would have poured my spirit without stint
But not through wounds; not on the cess of war.
Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were.
I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
I knew you in this dark; for so you frowned
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold.
Let us sleep now . . ."
If Justin and Ben will battle each other, I predict a post-mortem encounter on that note.
Of course, the season 2 premiere also offered two looks into the future, complete with symbols. The atom bomb, and an oil tower. Management says Ben should prevent this (fat chance), and Justin sees his new church entwined with the oil tower (faith corrupted by captitalism, as announced by the W.R. Hearst sponsoring of his radio talk?). Let's see - science sans ethics (or developed without considering the results) and oil/money as the twin evils of the 20th century? Hm. Now Samson informs us in his opening monologue that the old evil from the old world came and corrupted the heart of the new world, but otoh, the atom bomb and oil millions are distinctly American products. (Yes, there were a lot of European scientists involved in project Manhattan, but Robert Oppenheimer himself was homeborn and bread American.) Just how Ben is supposed to stop it, and stop it via fighting Justin, I'm not clear on, unless the creators are going for televengalism (radiovangelism?) as the method of corruption of minds which then results in a world fit for atom bombs and oil barons. Hm. Hm.
Meme fromandrastewhite
If you read this, even if we don't often speak/write, please post the first fanfiction/post of mine you remember reading, and what you thought.
Then post this to your journal. See what people remember about you.
Justin in the asylum was a chilling and effective sequence, reminding me somewhat of the particular horror The Woman in White always held for me - the idea of someone sane imprisoned as insane. It also reminded me of how easy this still is in some parts. (
artaxastra reminded me of it recently.) Just as chilling was the first time we see Justin use his powers deliberately to harm (excluding the neck twist he did as a child, because he was a small kid and frightened for his sister, so it doesn't really count) - when he whispers to the fellow inmate who later knocks himself against the wall in order to drown out Iris' voice on the radio. However, I am most gratified that we don't get a repeat of the Eeeeevil!Dukat scenario, with Justin emerging as the bent-on-nothing-but-EEEEVIL antichrist post-asylum. He might have accepted what he thinks is his role, but he's still desperately trying to be good. Which brings me to Justin and Iris. Now we did get a hint very early on - Justin catching a glimpse of Iris drying her hair - that his feelings aren't all fraternal, but he also clearly wasn't going to act on them and was ashamed of them. Cue self-flaggelation to expiate for them. So the fact that he reacted to her confession about having burned down the church and thereby killed the orphans with both shock and horror and an immediate and passionate kiss makes perfect sense. In that moment, she has become as tainted as he feels himself to be, and so he permits himself that outburst.Iris' deed, of course, mirrors what she did as a child, when if Justin's projection/memory is anything to go by she nearly killed a helpless man she perceived to be a threat to them. The thing about Iris - whose Russian name, Irina, means peace if you take the Greek origin - is that she seems to be utterly free of doubts and the self-loating plaguing her brother. Or questions about good and evil. The end justifies the means, good is what is good for Justin, and his calling is the right one, full stop. I don't think the kiss surprised her, either. (She did hear the sounds of his self-flaggelation early in the season, after all.) The only other character on the show so secure about her/his aims and allegiances is Lodz. Which shows what a frightening thing this kind of certainty is.
(Also: It's probably very wrong to root for the siblings of doom to get it on, but you know, can't help it.)
Incidentally, when watching Ben's dream showcasing Justin and Iris handing out razor blades for the people to swallow reminded me that Ben's vision of Justin as uniformely malevolent (except for Justin's first appearance in Ben's dreams, when they both sit down in an identical fashion) is far more negative than the reality, whereas Justin's vision of Ben... but that brings me into season 2's opening ep which I'll discuss below, to spare Andraste spoilers. I also wonder whether the dreams both have are controlled by Scudder and/or Management.
Parents in this show, and their children: one tangled web. When Sofie sees the man bearing the tree tattoo raping her mother via her mother's thoughts/memories, I suddenly wondered which mystical figure she's supposed to represent. Because absent fathers with a sinister past clearly signify roles to play. Scudder is who knows where, and has a body count, no matter how fondly Ruthie remembers him. One assumes there is also a reason why Ben's mother went from being a cheerful laughing girl in love with him to the bitter fanatical and horrified-of-her-own-son old woman we saw in the pilot. Justin's and Iris' father is MIA, and if it's the Russian Soldier as Andraste surmises, well, then (see below on season 2 premiere thoughts).
Mothers, on the other hand, are ever present. Ben's mother dies in the pilot, but his guilty suspicion that he could have saved her haunts him throughout the season, and so it's not surprising that Ruthie, his mother figure just as much as his first lover (and she slept with his father, too), goes all Lazarus on him in the end. Sofie's mother is as immobile as Snow White in her coffin (though she once walks for Ben, and could he have saved her?), but she's ever talking to her daughter through her thoughts and in the end bleeds over in memories. And then there's Rita Sue, a walking, talking Earth Mother Sex-and-Fertility symbol, whose daughter resents her but imitates her down to the looks. Over in California, an overt mother figure is suspiciously lacking, though perhaps you could count Mother Church? (And then there is the lost Mother Russia.)
The whole Rita-Stumpy-Jonesy-Sofie storyline reminded me more of Edward Albee than ever. I maintain that Rita Sue = Martha, and Felix = George. Can so see Elizabeth Taylor playing Rita, too. I was afraid for a bit that they would set up a Madonna/Whore thing with Sofie and Rita Sue, but apparently not, thank God. Anyway, though Jonesy is a nice guy, I thought Sofie and Libby made the cuter couple.
Management.... on to the season 2 premiere which alas I saw without having seen episode 12 of season 1 for reasons named above. Andraste, avert your eyes.
Okay, Management as the Russian Soldier. That threw me a bit, but it fits. If the Russian Soldier is indeed the father of the siblings Crowe, it also fits with my WWI as key theory. (And I wonder whether the bearded guy handing over the gospel of Matthias to Justin was in fact Scudder himself in disguise, or an emissary of same.) Apparently neither Scudder nor the Russian Soldier could fulfill their roles, and now they want to use their children to fight it out, which makes them Abrahams in the Wilfrid Owen sense, using their sons and setting them up for the bloody slaughter via dreams and cryptic talk and the occasional catastrophe, teaching them to kill. In hoc signo vincero? Was that Constantine supposedly dreamt, and what caused him to make Christianity the state religion, thereby turning what had been the refuge of the disenfranchised and poor into a state institution. Because it gave him victory in a military battle.
At the end of the episode, we see Justin dreaming of Ben, for a change, and it's the most fascinating dream of all, Ben emerging under his own face. Immediately, I thought of Owen's poem Strange Meeting.
It seemed that out of battle I escaped
Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped
Through granites which titanic wars had groined.
Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned,
Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred.
Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared
With piteous recognition in fixed eyes,
Lifting distressful hands as if to bless.
And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,
By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell.
With a thousand pains that vision's face was grained;
Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground,
And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan.
"Strange friend," I said, "here is no cause to mourn."
"None," said the other, "save the undone years,
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
Was my life also; I went hunting wild
After the wildest beauty in the world,
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
But mocks the steady running of the hour,
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
For by my glee might many men have laughed,
And of my weeping something had been left,
Which much die now. I mean the truth untold,
The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
Now men will go content with what we spoiled.
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress,
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery;
To miss the march of this retreating world
Into vain citadels that are not walled.
Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels
I would go up and wash them from sweet wells,
Even with truths that lie too deep for taint.
I would have poured my spirit without stint
But not through wounds; not on the cess of war.
Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were.
I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
I knew you in this dark; for so you frowned
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold.
Let us sleep now . . ."
If Justin and Ben will battle each other, I predict a post-mortem encounter on that note.
Of course, the season 2 premiere also offered two looks into the future, complete with symbols. The atom bomb, and an oil tower. Management says Ben should prevent this (fat chance), and Justin sees his new church entwined with the oil tower (faith corrupted by captitalism, as announced by the W.R. Hearst sponsoring of his radio talk?). Let's see - science sans ethics (or developed without considering the results) and oil/money as the twin evils of the 20th century? Hm. Now Samson informs us in his opening monologue that the old evil from the old world came and corrupted the heart of the new world, but otoh, the atom bomb and oil millions are distinctly American products. (Yes, there were a lot of European scientists involved in project Manhattan, but Robert Oppenheimer himself was homeborn and bread American.) Just how Ben is supposed to stop it, and stop it via fighting Justin, I'm not clear on, unless the creators are going for televengalism (radiovangelism?) as the method of corruption of minds which then results in a world fit for atom bombs and oil barons. Hm. Hm.
Meme from
andrastewhiteIf you read this, even if we don't often speak/write, please post the first fanfiction/post of mine you remember reading, and what you thought.
Then post this to your journal. See what people remember about you.
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no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 07:51 pm (UTC)but he's still desperately trying to be good
I'm not so sure about that. Instead a would say that he is desperately following what he sees as the word of god. Trying to be good is a result of what he is doing but goodness isn't the path, righteousness is.
no comment on Justin's family until I get you S2 Ep 4.
I hadn't considered who the guy with the Gospel of Matthias was so your suggestion is fascinating.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 08:23 pm (UTC)Point taken, and yes, righteousness and following the will of god (as he sees it) fits with what he's doing post-suicide attempt far better.
I hadn't considered who the guy with the Gospel of Matthias was so your suggestion is fascinating.
It would be a neat counterpart to the Russian Soldier/Management grooming Ben AND refusing to be healed by him. Methinks the previous generation has one complicated suicide wish going, but first they want to make sure the next generation battles it out.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 02:27 pm (UTC)If Scudder is the tree man who raped Sofie's mother (and I've always assumed he was) then there are interesting parellals between Ben/Sofie & Justin/Iris. I love the way those two relationships work together. Ben/Sofie is the classic and natural pairing for the show (if you ignore the sibling thing) and Justin/Iris is, I think, everyone's dirty, bad, wrong OTP. Both both couples may just be essential if the battle is to continue past Justin & Ben.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 03:17 pm (UTC)Unless either Whistling Murderer Man brings them together by trying to track down Scudder and ending up with Ben at his hands, or Management deigns to give Ben an address.
But I like the Scudder idea better. Much stronger parallels with Ben/Management, too.
If Scudder is the tree man who raped Sofie's mother (and I've always assumed he was) then there are interesting parellals between Ben/Sofie & Justin/Iris. I love the way those two relationships work together. Ben/Sofie is the classic and natural pairing for the show (if you ignore the sibling thing) and Justin/Iris is, I think, everyone's dirty, bad, wrong OTP. Both both couples may just be essential if the battle is to continue past Justin & Ben.
Oh, I hadn't considered the parallels between the siblings, but yes, of course, you're right. And in both cases, the woman is a bit older and appears to have no supernatural gifts of her own. (Though after the ending of 2.03 which I just saw I wonder about Sofie.)
I put a review for 1.12 and 2.02 and some more speculation in my most recent lj entry. But I have one question for you. Was 1.12 the last time we see conflicted Justin? Because that would make me sad. I mean, I could understand it in terms of the show moving on and Justin set on his antichrist course just as Ben becomes more christlike by the minute (now he even made it out of a grave), but I'd still miss the angst and the inner conflict.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 04:27 pm (UTC)I'm not sure the radio turning at the end of 2.03 is Sofie's doing. Justin seems to have the ability to control who hears his words.
2.03 (and 2.04) also made me uncomfortable with its Southerness in ways I still need to write about.
Justin has inner conflict coming. I'm not sure what will happen to the conflict after 2.05 (the last episode to air) but it is certainly there in 2.04 & 2.05.
Since you've seen S1 more recently than me maybe you can help me out with the bear symbolism. Was the Russian ever the bear? Was Scudder?
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 06:09 pm (UTC)Justin has inner conflict coming. I'm not sure what will happen to the conflict after 2.05 (the last episode to air) but it is certainly there in 2.04 & 2.05.
Where do you see the inner conflict in 2.04? Perhaps a flash when he angrily says to Iris "the door has already been opened", but that's it. Because the conversation with Tommy Dolan and "I need more proof" struck me as a calculated move, pointing towards wanting to get rid of Iris via Dolan. Otherwise, he, too, is much more of a cliché than last season. Not just because of missing signs of inner conflict and struggle, but did we need the Rosemary's Baby thing? (I.e. he doesn't just have sex with Celeste, he rapes her and abuses her and we hear demonic animal noises, and then moves on to the next servant?) Again, when the first season wanted to show Justin do something evil and/or display his power, we got the man in the mental asylum almost dashing his brains out after a little conversation, or him correcting the doctor's spelling, or the child abuser shooting himself. Far, far more effective, and not resorting to horror movie clichés.
I suspect it's the missing R. Moore that makes the difference now. Don't get me wrong, it's still an interesting show, but... it lost something. At least the first four episodes gave me that impression.
On the bright side, there are elements like Ruthie being able to see dead people, but more about that later.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 07:22 pm (UTC)I saw the inner conflict in the line you mentioned and also in "He means to kill me." It is the first vision of Justin's that paints Ben in such a bad light (that I remember) and I saw in all settling in at that moment, a realization of his fate. I think that moment is the last bit of inner conflict about his destiny (not to say there won't be inner conflict about other things). In that moment there was conflict and finally resolve. There is no reason for conflict, he is sure of Ben's motives now and therefore his own.
The animal noises were important because they were bear noises. (which is why I asked earlier about who the bear was in Ben's dreams).
You are right about the loss of subtlety but that almost had to happen for the battle to escalate.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 08:18 pm (UTC)Oh, good, if you do this rant, I can just link and complain about the other major anvilly thing. Because we all know where Justin's preachings about the rich industrialists and bankers who first fattened themselves on Europe and then on the Us are going, don't we? I mean, it's historically valid. Antisemitism is a big part of the 30s for obvious reasons. But if they actually do a Hitler-as-influenced by Justin thing, or a Hitler as the next activated antichrist once Ben defeats/kills Justin thing, I'll throw stuff on the tv. Demonization of the Nazis just drives me crazy. (I mean demonization in the sense of "the devil made them do it", not in the sense of "they were bad", which of course is putting mildly.)
I saw the inner conflict in the line you mentioned and also in "He means to kill me." It is the first vision of Justin's that paints Ben in such a bad light (that I remember) and I saw in all settling in at that moment, a realization of his fate. I think that moment is the last bit of inner conflict about his destiny (not to say there won't be inner conflict about other things). In that moment there was conflict and finally resolve. There is no reason for conflict, he is sure of Ben's motives now and therefore his own.
Oh. Well, that is a plausible interpretation which makes me feel better - thanks! Though, re: earlier negative visions of Ben by Justin - I suppose that depends on how you interpret the mirror vision where he rips off his own skin and Ben emerges. Which I found really intriguing.
The animal noises were important because they were bear noises. (which is why I asked earlier about who the bear was in Ben's dreams).
Ah. Incidentally, I forgot to answer that question, but now that you bring it up, I honestly can't recall - I had a tough time following Ben's dreams because the first six eps I got from snurch_tv were in a far worse visual quality then your sendings.
Anyway, if there is a connection, then of course there is a reason beyond the horror thing.
Oh, btw - I looked for communities and message boards and older messages I can safely read and found there is some disagreement about whether or not Justin and Iris had sex after the kiss in 1.11. and before the extremely uncomfortable breakfeast in 1.12. Somehow, I don't think so - this show otherwise isn't coy and ambiguous about just when two people have sex. But it's certainly open to interpretation. Your take?
You are right about the loss of subtlety but that almost had to happen for the battle to escalate.
Yes, which is why I don't accuse the show of cheating. They did say in the first opening monologue that we were in for said battle. Still... I suppose Babylon 5 which managed to keep the ambiguity of its characters throughout the great battles spoiled me for all future shows in this regard.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 01:10 am (UTC)You should wait until you see 2.05 (on its way now) before you start ranting on antisemitism but yes I see where it is going.
Demonization of the Nazis just drives me crazy.
I know completely what you mean and agree.
I suppose that depends on how you interpret the mirror vision where he rips off his own skin and Ben emerges. Which I found really intriguing.
I had forgotten about that one. It isn't malevolent really but it certainly is interesting.
I asked someone else about the bear, he should remember, I'll let you know what I find.
I don't think Iris & Justin had sex after 1.11. I wasn't guit sure until the S2 ep where Justin looks at her legs. There is too much temptation in that shot. I don't think the temptation would still be there for Justin if he had already had Iris.
Justin & Ben aren't ambiguious anymore but everyone else sure is. Sofie gets curiouser and more interesting and Managment's motives are still fascinating.
The Justin/Ben fight isn't the question. Who else will be on which side and why is the question.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 09:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 04:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-07 10:21 pm (UTC)I suppose they weren't to know that he actually does have superpowers, but his 'treatment' almost made me shut my eyes in sheer horror. (And if I make the Justin vid I have in my head, I'll have to watch that bit over, and over, and over ...) Also loved the part where he corrected the doctor's spelling - both chilling and funny.
However, I am most gratified that we don't get a repeat of the Eeeeevil!Dukat scenario, with Justin emerging as the bent-on-nothing-but-EEEEVIL antichrist post-asylum.
And this is why I forgive Ron Moore for Waltz. He claims part of the credit for fixing Justin's character arc, which in the initial scripts was apparently non-existent. (He already had his radio show, for example.) Here, we have a character whose story involves ending up in an asylum and becoming a cult leader ... and it's completely the right direction for the arc to take *g*.
In that moment, she has become as tainted as he feels himself to be, and so he permits himself that outburst.
Yes, exactly. A perfect way to convey his emotional turmoil.
The thing about Iris - whose Russian name, Irina, means peace if you take the Greek origin
And 'Alexander' means 'protector of mankind'. My friends and I used Google to look up the meanings of everyone's name, and it proved interesting *g*.
(Well, most of the time. I guess 'Clayton Jones' has to be 'Casey Jones' from American folklore, which also recalls 'Casey at the Bat'.)
I don't think the kiss surprised her, either. (She did hear the sounds of his self-flaggelation early in the season, after all.)
Yes, and he was acting in response to her rubbing his shoulders then. Interesting that she was less blind to his feelings than he was to hers, and she doesn't seem horrified by them, either. (She didn't exactly object to that kiss ...)
The only other character on the show so secure about her/his aims and allegiances is Lodz. Which shows what a frightening thing this kind of certainty is.
This was when I decided I truly loved Iris (rather than just finding her fascinating.) Female characters who scare me = yay!
(Also: It's probably very wrong to root for the siblings of doom to get it on, but you know, can't help it.)
Same here, and now you see what I meant about the incest. They're my bad, sick, wrong OTP.
(Also, I was pointing out to my friends that if the show isn't going to make this the last showdown between Good and Evil - which it might - the relationship almost has to be consumated. Assuming the powers are indeed passed father to son ...)
Since you missed the last episode - which has some fabulous stuff for Justin I won't spoil in case you do see it - I'll transcribe this small scene:
Iris: (comes to get Justin for church, and finds him sitting on his bed staring into the case that contains his whip. Sits down behind him.)
Justin: "The Bible tells us we are all born in sin, each of us damned at birth."
Iris: (stroking the back of his neck in not-very-platonic way) "The Bible also tells us that redemption is possible. That we can all be reborn again, with God's love."
Justin: (closing the case and turning around) "Perhaps God has other plans for some of us."
Mothers, on the other hand, are ever present.
May I just say how nice it is that people on this show have complicated relationships with their mothers as well as their fathers?
Over in California, an overt mother figure is suspiciously lacking, though perhaps you could count Mother Church? (And then there is the lost Mother Russia.)
Yes, and their own mother was killed in the accident.
It's been pointed out to me that the wreck itself might not have been accidental at all, although who could be responsible isn't clear from the flashback.
Andraste, avert your eyes.
Ah, and now we are back to the natural order of things *g*.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 05:02 am (UTC)Oh, same here. I wonder whether we're supposed to empathize with Justin this much? But I can't see how one can watch this and not feel sorry for someone subjected to it.
And this is why I forgive Ron Moore for Waltz. He claims part of the credit for fixing Justin's character arc, which in the initial scripts was apparently non-existent. (He already had his radio show, for example.) Here, we have a character whose story involves ending up in an asylum and becoming a cult leader ... and it's completely the right direction for the arc to take *g*.
True. I now read the interview you linked at your lj, btw. Though it leaves me slightly worried for Moore is off to BSG now - I hope, despite the necessity and rightness of Cult Leader!Justin, thinking himself the Antichrist, Daniel Knauf won't abandon all shades of grey.
Interesting that she was less blind to his feelings than he was to hers, and she doesn't seem horrified by them, either. (She didn't exactly object to that kiss ...)
Well, she's the elder.*g* No, seriously, what does surprise me is that they lived all this years together without ever acting on these feelings. I mean, okay, Norman gave them a firm Methodist (it is Methodist, right? Can't tell with all these American branches of Protestantism, being a Catholic girl from Europe myself) education, and until Justin got the double shock of the burned orphans and the rememberance of the man he killed as a small child, he believed wholeheartedly in Norman's ideals, but Iris?
Also, I was pointing out to my friends that if the show isn't going to make this the last showdown between Good and Evil - which it might - the relationship almost has to be consumated. Assuming the powers are indeed passed father to son ...
You're assuming here that Justin won't have sex with anyone but Iris. I could see him fight against his desire some more by deflecting it to another person. Partly, too, to punish Iris for the burned children.
May I just say how nice it is that people on this show have complicated relationships with their mothers as well as their fathers?
Oh yes. Finally, it's not All About Daddy in an American show.
It's been pointed out to me that the wreck itself might not have been accidental at all, although who could be responsible isn't clear from the flashback.
Well, little Irina had to get her paranoia about everyone being after them somewhere. Also, she says their father is a bad man...
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 02:02 am (UTC)Possibly not - but if they don't want us to feel bad for him, they should inflict less angst on the poor man.
TThough it leaves me slightly worried for Moore is off to BSG now - I hope, despite the necessity and rightness of Cult Leader!Justin, thinking himself the Antichrist, Daniel Knauf won't abandon all shades of grey.
Fingers crossed - obviously you're now in a better position than I am to speculate.
No, seriously, what does surprise me is that they lived all this years together without ever acting on these feelings.
It is interesting, yes. You have to assume it was a factor in neither of them ending up with other people - I doubt Tommy is the first person who's made a play for Iris, although maybe having Justin around put off other potential love interests. No doubt Iris found some way to dissuade anyone who batted their eyelashes at Justin, too. And yet, neither of them did anything about it.
I mean, okay, Norman gave them a firm Methodist (it is Methodist, right? Can't tell with all these American branches of Protestantism, being a Catholic girl from Europe myself)
Yes, they're Methodists. I had to rewind the tape to check at one point myself. (We do have Methodists down here, but they're not quite the same ...)
But Iris?
That is the question. Of course, maybe she's internalized the idea tht Nice Methodist Girls don't make the first move on Nice Methodist Boys. Even if she apparently missed the bits about not lusting after your own brother and burning orphans ...
You're assuming here that Justin won't have sex with anyone but Iris. I could see him fight against his desire some more by deflecting it to another person. Partly, too, to punish Iris for the burned children.
Good point - that could certainly happen.
Well, little Irina had to get her paranoia about everyone being after them somewhere. Also, she says their father is a bad man...
Hopefully Season Two clears that (and a number of other things) up.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 06:11 am (UTC)Fingers crossed - obviously you're now in a better position than I am to speculate.
Alas. Alas. *cries for tormented and angsty Justin, now changed to Gleeful!Evil!Justin* Mind you, everyone else is still morally ambiguous, and there are some fascinating revelations about Management and about the Scudder clan (not the same revelations), but it seems our Mr. Moore took the inner struggle for Justin with him and now Knauf does what he originally wanted to do with the character. Really, season 2 makes me believe wholeheartedly that Justin's season 1 arc was solely Moore's idea.
Wah!
I doubt Tommy is the first person who's made a play for Iris, although maybe having Justin around put off other potential love interests.
Especially if he did that "I can see your worst deeds" spiel before he does it to the coin-puking lady...
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 06:39 am (UTC)*cries*
*hugs Tormented!Ambiguous!Justin*
*contemplates stabbing Daniel Knauf*
Mind you, everyone else is still morally ambiguous, and there are some fascinating revelations about Management and about the Scudder clan (not the same revelations).
I shall attempt to take some consolation in this. Naturally I shall still watch the show, but ... *headdesk*. It really is a cosmic law that if a villain I love starts out ambiguous and complicated, he'll be turned Eeeevil sooner or later. (Some - Scorpius, for example - go the opposite direction.) This is why I fear for Arvin Sloane, however irational I know the fear is given J.J. Abrams' track record thus far.
Really, season 2 makes me believe wholeheartedly that Justin's season 1 arc was solely Moore's idea.
I don't know whether to be happy we got that much, or miffed at him for leaving. Of course, we get BSG out of him leaving.
Well, there's always fanfiction, I suppose.
Especially if he did that "I can see your worst deeds" spiel before he does it to the coin-puking lady...
And my guess is that he did. He didn't seem shocked by his own abilities in that scene.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 08:22 am (UTC)*hugs Tormented!Ambiguous!Justin*
*contemplates stabbing Daniel Knauf*
My reaction exactly.*g* I have this image of the storyboard conference after Moore's departure with him saying: "Okay, we really have to get this battle of good versus evil going. Relucted tormented evil versus tormented good won't do it. Justin just isn't a fearsome and disgusting villain right now. How are we supposed to root for Ben to finish him off? So, people, changing that is your first priority..."
It really is a cosmic law that if a villain I love starts out ambiguous and complicated, he'll be turned Eeeevil sooner or later. (Some - Scorpius, for example - go the opposite direction.) This is why I fear for Arvin Sloane, however irrational I know the fear is given J.J. Abrams' track record thus far.
As of episode 5 of season 4, I can reassure you. Abrams might have messed up with his poor heroine in season 3, and with his romantic lead, but he's doing just swell with the older generation, especially Sloane. (Also? To my surprise I actually, gasp, liked not one but two Vaughn-heavy eps of season 4. Both written by the ME scribes. There is definitely a character-saving operation going on for him and Sydney.)
I don't know whether to be happy we got that much, or miffed at him for leaving. Of course, we get BSG out of him leaving.
True, and it is very good and shiny indeed, plus he can be the boss there. Knauf did create Carnivale, so Moore would have been Chris Boucher at the very best there, and I don't blame him for wanting to be Terry Nation at least once.
And my guess is that he did. He didn't seem shocked by his own abilities in that scene.
Now I want to read the story where Norman invites a nice church-going boy for his foster daughter to meet, and Teen!Justin goes all telepathic on him.*veg*
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 11:53 am (UTC)I'm glad to see on your lj that there's a glimmer of light in 2.05 at least.
I suppose it's too much to hope for that Justin decides being Gleefully Evil means he can now have constant, guilt-free sex with Iris?
(It should bother me that I would consider this some form of consolation ...)
(Also? To my surprise I actually, gasp, liked not one but two Vaughn-heavy eps of season 4. Both written by the ME scribes. There is definitely a character-saving operation going on for him and Sydney.)
Cool. I mean, it's not as if I enjoy finding characters dull, since thinking of new ways they could be eviscerated only provides so much entertainment ...
Knauf did create Carnivale, so Moore would have been Chris Boucher at the very best there, and I don't blame him for wanting to be Terry Nation at least once.
Yes. From the interview, I can see why he wanted that chance. Being a writer rather than a creator, no matter how important you are, means having a limited impact on the universe you're working in.
Now I want to read the story where Norman invites a nice church-going boy for his foster daughter to meet, and Teen!Justin goes all telepathic on him.*veg*
Oh dear. I have a mental image of Norman being extremely puzzled when the nice boy flees in terror. Iris would pretend to be confused too, and secretly be glad because it proved how much Justin loved her ...
no subject
Date: 2005-02-09 12:57 pm (UTC)Yes, thankfully. The writer is one of Moore's old Star Trek pals as it turns out, so perhaps he arranged for her/him (not sure) to be there. Justin and Iris have the best scene they got since the big confession, and it's excellent writing and acting for both of them. Very intense.
I suppose it's too much to hope for that Justin decides being Gleefully Evil means he can now have constant, guilt-free sex with Iris?
Alas, no. In the very first ep of the season, he permits himself a lingering looks at her legs (she's lying on the couch, sleeping, only after he lingered enough, she just looks back and thus proves she hasn't been sleeping at all) and then goes to a prostitute. Which is downright healthy and normal compared to the next thing he does sexually. (Which is where the Gleefully Evil thing comes in.) The question of why, since he's decided he's going be All Evil, All The Way, he still respects that taboo is very interesting, but it's not implausible. The very intense scene I mentioned provides one possible explanation (they're not talking about sex but about something very different, but the dialogue "if you want me to do this, you have to ask" (Iris) and "I can't" (Justin) is spoken, and certainly ridden with subtext.
Another explanation might be the Gleefully Evil thing. Let's just say that having sex with an unrestrained Justin might be very detrimental to your life and sanity. And that's why he won't with Iris.
Oh dear. I have a mental image of Norman being extremely puzzled when the nice boy flees in terror. Iris would pretend to be confused too, and secretly be glad because it proved how much Justin loved her ...
He. Absolutely. Incidentally, you may have noticed that she calls him Alexsei a couple of times in emotional moments, but 2.05 presents the first occasion when he calls her Irina. Evil or not, I went awwwwww.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-11 10:32 am (UTC)I'll look forward to that, then *g*.
Which is downright healthy and normal compared to the next thing he does sexually. (Which is where the Gleefully Evil thing comes in.)
... I'll start bracing myself now, shall I?
Another explanation might be the Gleefully Evil thing. Let's just say that having sex with an unrestrained Justin might be very detrimental to your life and sanity. And that's why he won't with Iris.
Oh dear. That's not good.
Incidentally, you may have noticed that she calls him Alexsei a couple of times in emotional moments, but 2.05 presents the first occasion when he calls her Irina. Evil or not, I went awwwwww.
I shall second the awwwwwww. You know, they'd really be quite sweet if it wasn't for the Evil and the blood relationship ...
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 04:33 am (UTC)"Truth or Dare".
no subject
Date: 2005-02-08 04:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 12:32 pm (UTC)I was actually wondering if wasn't a case of pairs of good and evil, rather than individuals of good and evil. In california, we have Iris and Justin, and back east we have ben - and Sofie. I still maintain that there is something weird going on with Sofie to account for the odd way she is treated. Is she a honey trap? Why did her mother try to kill her - or did she? is this a baptism of fire kind of thing? we have ben, who is involved with his mother figure - appollonia - in a sexual way, and justin, who wants to be involved with his mother figure (because there's just no way that Irina didn't hold that place in young Alexei's heart, given the lack of maternal figures around. Also, how she turns down his bed, and fixes him supper, and does all the things a wife or mother would do in that time and place. The self-flagellation struck me as more oedipal (or shakespearean) than, er, schaffer-ian (!), so.). Meanwhile, the 'sisters' (Iris, playing both roles) and Sofie, both have agendas of their own and have directions/destinies/callings of their own.
What I find interesting is that Iris, for me, covers a great many archetypes simultaneously and she is quite fluid in moving between them, whereas back east there are a great many more female figures that are more fixed in their approach. We have all the mother-figures we could want, both dead and alive, and 'sisters', and objects of acceptable and unacceptable lust. In california, Justin and Iris are bearing the mantle of many people and figures at once, and it is pulling them in different directions.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 01:47 pm (UTC)What I find interesting is that Iris, for me, covers a great many archetypes simultaneously and she is quite fluid in moving between them, whereas back east there are a great many more female figures that are more fixed in their approach. We have all the mother-figures we could want, both dead and alive, and 'sisters', and objects of acceptable and unacceptable lust.
Yes, Iris does, and is very certain of herself in the first season in a way the male figures are not... You can also postulate the church as an abstract female whom Justin moves to and thro from, of course.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 04:29 pm (UTC)Hmmm. The 'abstract female' of the Church and of Russia don't really work for me, although I suspect that they bloody well should. Juxtaposing a hypothetical against all the flesh and blood women we see elsewhere just leaves the 'abstract female' a bit lacklustre, IMO. More 'courtly love' than actually engaging.
That said, I totally agree with your assessment of why Justin responds to Iris's confession re: the orphanage by kissing her.