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selenakFirstly, American readers, if the ramblings on these humble pages or anything else has made you interested into the new Battlestar Galactica, the Sci-Fi Channel is running a marathon on Tuesday of the first five episodes starting at 7 p.m. EST, so you should have a chance to catch up. A fan of the old show – proving that loving both is far from mutually exclusive - lists eleven reasons why.
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thassalia, while reviewing episode 5, mentioned having an argument with her significant other. Quote:
This mostly ends up being an argument because of his issues with Starbuck being a girl. He somehow feels like it's a betrayal of his childhood memories and white men everywhere (don't expect sense of M. that late on a Friday night). He finally asked how I'd feel if they remade Star Wars and made Han Solo a girl. I sort of shrugged, and was backed up by Sab on Saturday as we both agreed it would probably be kind of hot.
Which reminds me that almost a year ago, inspired by a post of Andraste’s I think, I went on a bit about genderflipping, where it’s possible and where I could see difficulties. (I.e. for example in the Babylon 5 universe, you could genderswitch all the humans – though possibly not at the same time – without that changing their storylines, and you could do it with the Narn characters (i.e. female G’Kar and male Na’Toth) but it’s far more difficult with the Centauri, especially Londo, because of the way Centauri society, patterned as it is after the Romans, has been characterized. You can have influential women, but they’d have to work through men, they couldn’t be ambassadors on B5. Now with Star Wars, I think a remake, twenty or thirty years hence, with genderswitches could be fascinating. Actually Han Solo would be the easiest candidate to genderflip without taking away any of the Solo characteristics, or changing his storyline. (Assuming the audience at large will then finally be ready to buy a textual samesex romance in a blockbuster.) Smuggler Jenna Solo – Jenna in honour of that other smuggler and pilot of the 70s, Jenna in B7, of course – could still take them to the Death Star, get close to Luke and Leia, get frozen and get rescued. The only thing that would change a bit, in this hypothetical scenario, would be Luke’s reaction to Solo the Smuggler, if you maintain Luke as male and inexperienced farmboy. He might be somewhat attracted as well.
The Jedi, otoh, would require some deeper changes in the storylines, depending on whom you genderswitch. The most problematical might be Obi-Wan Kenobi, not because of himself but because of Anakin/Vader (if you keep Anakin as male), because the prequels offer some reason to believe that young Anakin responds far better to female authority than he does to male. If, otoh, you genderswitch Anakin in the prequels and Vader in the OT but keep the rest of the Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, later Luke) as male, you can keep the storyline as it is but might aquire a possibly misogynistic subtext. (Gender-switching one or two of the unfallen Jedi along with Anakin should take care of that, though.) Still, I’m fascinated by the idea of a female Vader. But then, I’m firmly withalara_r and andrastewhite on that one (i.e. the idea of genderswitchs in old favourites of mine being intriguing instead of provoking holy outrage).
Going back to certain characters or archetypes and changing/flipping something doesn’t have to be gender, of course.deborah_judge has now started the final run of episodes on DS9 and, as I expected, loves the Kai Winn storyline. As she also started to watch the new BSG, she intriguingly suggested that Laura Roslin might in part be inspired by Ron Moore wanting to write about Winn – or the Winn prototype – from a Winn-friendly pov. I.e. the female mature politician in charge of things, in a somewhat competitive relationship with the male commander, ready to sacrifice lives if she has to, as a sympathetic character we’re supposed to root for, not against. Meanwhile, Andraste mentioned that Justin in Carnivale’s first season is the reason she forgives Moore for Waltz and Eeeeevil!Dukat. (I forgave him before because while he might have written the actual episode, the decision to make Dukat uniformly evil from Waltz onwards was made by the executive producer and headwriter of the show, Ira Behr, who was quite vocal in interviews about his disgust with Dukat fans. (Think David Fury/Spike fans in season 5.) Moore was one of the more influential writers on DS9, and contributed a lot, but so far nothing indicates the Dukat thing had been his idea.) And I can see the similarities. A character who after a horrible tragedy involving the loss of a child/children – and as it turns out at the hand of someone near and dear to him – has a mental breakdown from which he reemerges believing being an antichrist kind of figure is his lot in life and becomes a cult leader? Check. Only in the case of Justin, as opposed to Dukat, we’re encouraged to see this as a tragedy and something he struggled (struggles?) against. And apparently in Daniel Knauf’s original version of the pilot, Justin was already evil ™ , with his own radio show and cult; his season 1 arc was Moore’s specific change in the concept and contribution to the show.
Which brings me to the season 1 finale of Carnivale, The Day that was the Day, which now has arrived at my virtual doorstep as well. (Thanks, smashc). Looking at the writing credits of the season, I can see that Ron Moore – who was executive producer along with series creator Daniel Kauf but is not anymore in the second season, due to being busy on BSG - penned this one and Pick a Number (aka the creepiest episode ever) – and they’re easily among the most powerful of the season. Some of what happened in the finale I had guessed by the season 2 opening ep, but not all.
Management manipulating Ben into killing Lodz was among the guessable things, but I still felt strongly for him. Justin asking Norman to kill him, otoh, was a surprise. And there is no reason not to believe he’s not sincere at that moment. At this point, it’s interesting to take a closer look at the powers each othe supernaturally gifted have:
Ben: can heal and resurrect from the dead, but only by taking the lives of others. Which well and truly sucks for him. It’s a power that requires a strong ethical code because obviously, there is the danger of setting yourself up as God. (Which is what Management seems to encourage him to do, or is it?)
Justin: hypnosis. Even the neck twist as a child can be explained by him sending a powerful order to the man to break his own neck, I suppose, because otherwise that would be the only instant where Justin uses telekinesis. The hypnosis he uses often, but not always, comes coupled with some cognisance of crimes the person in question has committed. I’d call this telepathy except Justin himself does seem to be surprised by some of the results when they are shown. It can’t be feelings of guilt he picks up, though because while in the case of the migrant lady stealing coins, or the councillor abusing children, there have been wrongs of various degrees committed, Norman saving little Justin and Iris was a purely altruistic act and evil only in regards to the consequences, and only if you believe, as Justin does a moment later, that Justin becoming evil is inevitable and pre-ordained. In any case, hypnosis is of course a power just as easily able to corrupt its user. (Which is one of the reason why Charles Xavier really needs that strong code of ethics he clings to. The daily temptation just to fix the world to his liking, and to hell with free will, must be horrible.)
Appollonia: Telepathy. While she communicates only with her daughter – and with the somewhat similarly gifted Lodz – she obviously can read other people’s thoughts as well. Pre-cognisance. Telekinesis.
Management: Healing like Ben, hypnosis like Justin (I’m assuming that when Jonesy entered, Management hypnotized him into seeing nothing), and telekinesis like Appollonia. Now isn’t that interesting?
Lodz: can enter dreams and communicate with Appollonia. There seems to be some limited telepathy with waking people as well, or perhaps he’s just really good at reading them. I’m favouring the limited telepathy option, though. His blindness makes me think that he came to this gift by sacrificing his eyesight, like Odin sacrificed one of his eyes for wisdom. Not in a “born with it” way Ben and Justin. (Whether Appollonia had her gifts before she got raped and immobile, we don’t know.)
Sofie: that’s the question. Another thing the season 2 opener hadn’t prepared me for was the Lodz-Appollonia conversation, and the fascinating “it can’t be her!” obviously referring to Sofie. Or that Appollonia actually actively tried to kill Sofie. Which ties her with Ben’s mother rejecting and cursing her son at the beginning, and possibly the Russian Soldier in light of the season 2 opener. It does tie her, in a contrast kind of way, with Norman. Norman is asked by Justin to kill his adopted son because they’re both convinced Justin is on the path of damnation, and possibly the Antichrist, but can’t bring himself to do it due to the love he has for his “son”. Appollonia tries to kill her natural daughter – and herself – because she, too, appears to believe Sofie is destined for… what? Another antichrist position? Does Sofie have gifts, possibly inherited from her father, which Appollonia has kept back so far but doesn’t think she can keep back any longer, hence the attempted murder? Hmmmmm.
Now I had gathered that Jonesy had caught Sofie and Libby in the act, but hadn’t guessed that Sofie had engineered the situation deliberately to punish them both. Which makes it more layered at once. It’s ruthless and somewhat out of proportion to the wrong they did her, at least as far as Libby (and Libby not telling Sofie about the Jonesy/Rita Sue tryst) is concerned. It’s the most malicious thing we’ve seen Sofie do, and explains her behaviour in 2.01 and 2.02 (until watching 1.12, I thought she overreacted). And it manages to ruin not one but two of her relationships in one stroke. Ouch.
Meanwhile, our Edward Albee couple make up, which fits with the Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf template. You know, Rita Sue and Felix “Stumpy” Dreyfus might be the Garibaldis of Carnivale, i.e. the characters least likely to get a happy ending but who actually get one. I’d wish it for them.
Andraste, look away again, as I get to episode 2.02 now….
…yikes. Justin getting the tree tattoo on himself made for another powerful creepy final image. And this episode features the second instance – after the man in the asylum banging his head agains the wall – of Justin using his powers maliciously in a deliberate and calculated way. (Unless the sublimal messages via radio were generated by his suconscious desire to an instrument to track down Scudder rather than him creating them knowlingly. I suppose we’re to think that he knew what he was doing, though, in which case I have to add wide-range telepathy to his powers, though.)
Using the Asian prostitute (at first I thought she was supposed to be Chinese, but “gomen nasai” is Japanese) from early season 1 was clever on the part of the writers. One assumes he’s going to her to channel his taboo desire for Iris, and even when we see her using an instrument instead of having actual sex, it looks like a variation of the self flaggelation, so the tattoo really comes as a surprise shocker. I suppose he found it in the gospel of Matthias? In which case I’m starting to wonder whether Scudder is identical with the tattood man who raped Appollonia and thus is Sofie’s father as well.
Celeste the new housemaid will inevitably end up being the person Justin actually does have sex with, methinks. No strong will, no back-up, and not his sister. It’s interesting, though, that Justin even after deciding on the left-hand-of-God path still doesn’t permit himself to consumate his feelings for Iris. I wonder whether it’s to punish her (and himself) for the fate of the children; he certainly hasn’t forgotten or forgiven, judging by him looking directly at her when listing their names in the church dedication.
Management/The Russian Soldier says it would be “an abomination” to let himself be healed by Justin and resists the temptation, barely, but he resists. Why an abomination? Because he’s a champion of the previous generation who failed in his task? And while I’m on the subject, the voice sounds female to me. Were it not for Ben’s dreams in which the Russian Soldier is distinctly male, I’d suppose Management is female. Otoh we only have Management’s words about being identical with the Russian Soldier, so, who knows?
thassalia, while reviewing episode 5, mentioned having an argument with her significant other. Quote:This mostly ends up being an argument because of his issues with Starbuck being a girl. He somehow feels like it's a betrayal of his childhood memories and white men everywhere (don't expect sense of M. that late on a Friday night). He finally asked how I'd feel if they remade Star Wars and made Han Solo a girl. I sort of shrugged, and was backed up by Sab on Saturday as we both agreed it would probably be kind of hot.
Which reminds me that almost a year ago, inspired by a post of Andraste’s I think, I went on a bit about genderflipping, where it’s possible and where I could see difficulties. (I.e. for example in the Babylon 5 universe, you could genderswitch all the humans – though possibly not at the same time – without that changing their storylines, and you could do it with the Narn characters (i.e. female G’Kar and male Na’Toth) but it’s far more difficult with the Centauri, especially Londo, because of the way Centauri society, patterned as it is after the Romans, has been characterized. You can have influential women, but they’d have to work through men, they couldn’t be ambassadors on B5. Now with Star Wars, I think a remake, twenty or thirty years hence, with genderswitches could be fascinating. Actually Han Solo would be the easiest candidate to genderflip without taking away any of the Solo characteristics, or changing his storyline. (Assuming the audience at large will then finally be ready to buy a textual samesex romance in a blockbuster.) Smuggler Jenna Solo – Jenna in honour of that other smuggler and pilot of the 70s, Jenna in B7, of course – could still take them to the Death Star, get close to Luke and Leia, get frozen and get rescued. The only thing that would change a bit, in this hypothetical scenario, would be Luke’s reaction to Solo the Smuggler, if you maintain Luke as male and inexperienced farmboy. He might be somewhat attracted as well.
The Jedi, otoh, would require some deeper changes in the storylines, depending on whom you genderswitch. The most problematical might be Obi-Wan Kenobi, not because of himself but because of Anakin/Vader (if you keep Anakin as male), because the prequels offer some reason to believe that young Anakin responds far better to female authority than he does to male. If, otoh, you genderswitch Anakin in the prequels and Vader in the OT but keep the rest of the Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, later Luke) as male, you can keep the storyline as it is but might aquire a possibly misogynistic subtext. (Gender-switching one or two of the unfallen Jedi along with Anakin should take care of that, though.) Still, I’m fascinated by the idea of a female Vader. But then, I’m firmly with
alara_r and andrastewhite on that one (i.e. the idea of genderswitchs in old favourites of mine being intriguing instead of provoking holy outrage). Going back to certain characters or archetypes and changing/flipping something doesn’t have to be gender, of course.
deborah_judge has now started the final run of episodes on DS9 and, as I expected, loves the Kai Winn storyline. As she also started to watch the new BSG, she intriguingly suggested that Laura Roslin might in part be inspired by Ron Moore wanting to write about Winn – or the Winn prototype – from a Winn-friendly pov. I.e. the female mature politician in charge of things, in a somewhat competitive relationship with the male commander, ready to sacrifice lives if she has to, as a sympathetic character we’re supposed to root for, not against. Meanwhile, Andraste mentioned that Justin in Carnivale’s first season is the reason she forgives Moore for Waltz and Eeeeevil!Dukat. (I forgave him before because while he might have written the actual episode, the decision to make Dukat uniformly evil from Waltz onwards was made by the executive producer and headwriter of the show, Ira Behr, who was quite vocal in interviews about his disgust with Dukat fans. (Think David Fury/Spike fans in season 5.) Moore was one of the more influential writers on DS9, and contributed a lot, but so far nothing indicates the Dukat thing had been his idea.) And I can see the similarities. A character who after a horrible tragedy involving the loss of a child/children – and as it turns out at the hand of someone near and dear to him – has a mental breakdown from which he reemerges believing being an antichrist kind of figure is his lot in life and becomes a cult leader? Check. Only in the case of Justin, as opposed to Dukat, we’re encouraged to see this as a tragedy and something he struggled (struggles?) against. And apparently in Daniel Knauf’s original version of the pilot, Justin was already evil ™ , with his own radio show and cult; his season 1 arc was Moore’s specific change in the concept and contribution to the show. Which brings me to the season 1 finale of Carnivale, The Day that was the Day, which now has arrived at my virtual doorstep as well. (Thanks, smashc). Looking at the writing credits of the season, I can see that Ron Moore – who was executive producer along with series creator Daniel Kauf but is not anymore in the second season, due to being busy on BSG - penned this one and Pick a Number (aka the creepiest episode ever) – and they’re easily among the most powerful of the season. Some of what happened in the finale I had guessed by the season 2 opening ep, but not all.
Management manipulating Ben into killing Lodz was among the guessable things, but I still felt strongly for him. Justin asking Norman to kill him, otoh, was a surprise. And there is no reason not to believe he’s not sincere at that moment. At this point, it’s interesting to take a closer look at the powers each othe supernaturally gifted have:
Ben: can heal and resurrect from the dead, but only by taking the lives of others. Which well and truly sucks for him. It’s a power that requires a strong ethical code because obviously, there is the danger of setting yourself up as God. (Which is what Management seems to encourage him to do, or is it?)
Justin: hypnosis. Even the neck twist as a child can be explained by him sending a powerful order to the man to break his own neck, I suppose, because otherwise that would be the only instant where Justin uses telekinesis. The hypnosis he uses often, but not always, comes coupled with some cognisance of crimes the person in question has committed. I’d call this telepathy except Justin himself does seem to be surprised by some of the results when they are shown. It can’t be feelings of guilt he picks up, though because while in the case of the migrant lady stealing coins, or the councillor abusing children, there have been wrongs of various degrees committed, Norman saving little Justin and Iris was a purely altruistic act and evil only in regards to the consequences, and only if you believe, as Justin does a moment later, that Justin becoming evil is inevitable and pre-ordained. In any case, hypnosis is of course a power just as easily able to corrupt its user. (Which is one of the reason why Charles Xavier really needs that strong code of ethics he clings to. The daily temptation just to fix the world to his liking, and to hell with free will, must be horrible.)
Appollonia: Telepathy. While she communicates only with her daughter – and with the somewhat similarly gifted Lodz – she obviously can read other people’s thoughts as well. Pre-cognisance. Telekinesis.
Management: Healing like Ben, hypnosis like Justin (I’m assuming that when Jonesy entered, Management hypnotized him into seeing nothing), and telekinesis like Appollonia. Now isn’t that interesting?
Lodz: can enter dreams and communicate with Appollonia. There seems to be some limited telepathy with waking people as well, or perhaps he’s just really good at reading them. I’m favouring the limited telepathy option, though. His blindness makes me think that he came to this gift by sacrificing his eyesight, like Odin sacrificed one of his eyes for wisdom. Not in a “born with it” way Ben and Justin. (Whether Appollonia had her gifts before she got raped and immobile, we don’t know.)
Sofie: that’s the question. Another thing the season 2 opener hadn’t prepared me for was the Lodz-Appollonia conversation, and the fascinating “it can’t be her!” obviously referring to Sofie. Or that Appollonia actually actively tried to kill Sofie. Which ties her with Ben’s mother rejecting and cursing her son at the beginning, and possibly the Russian Soldier in light of the season 2 opener. It does tie her, in a contrast kind of way, with Norman. Norman is asked by Justin to kill his adopted son because they’re both convinced Justin is on the path of damnation, and possibly the Antichrist, but can’t bring himself to do it due to the love he has for his “son”. Appollonia tries to kill her natural daughter – and herself – because she, too, appears to believe Sofie is destined for… what? Another antichrist position? Does Sofie have gifts, possibly inherited from her father, which Appollonia has kept back so far but doesn’t think she can keep back any longer, hence the attempted murder? Hmmmmm.
Now I had gathered that Jonesy had caught Sofie and Libby in the act, but hadn’t guessed that Sofie had engineered the situation deliberately to punish them both. Which makes it more layered at once. It’s ruthless and somewhat out of proportion to the wrong they did her, at least as far as Libby (and Libby not telling Sofie about the Jonesy/Rita Sue tryst) is concerned. It’s the most malicious thing we’ve seen Sofie do, and explains her behaviour in 2.01 and 2.02 (until watching 1.12, I thought she overreacted). And it manages to ruin not one but two of her relationships in one stroke. Ouch.
Meanwhile, our Edward Albee couple make up, which fits with the Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf template. You know, Rita Sue and Felix “Stumpy” Dreyfus might be the Garibaldis of Carnivale, i.e. the characters least likely to get a happy ending but who actually get one. I’d wish it for them.
Andraste, look away again, as I get to episode 2.02 now….
…yikes. Justin getting the tree tattoo on himself made for another powerful creepy final image. And this episode features the second instance – after the man in the asylum banging his head agains the wall – of Justin using his powers maliciously in a deliberate and calculated way. (Unless the sublimal messages via radio were generated by his suconscious desire to an instrument to track down Scudder rather than him creating them knowlingly. I suppose we’re to think that he knew what he was doing, though, in which case I have to add wide-range telepathy to his powers, though.)
Using the Asian prostitute (at first I thought she was supposed to be Chinese, but “gomen nasai” is Japanese) from early season 1 was clever on the part of the writers. One assumes he’s going to her to channel his taboo desire for Iris, and even when we see her using an instrument instead of having actual sex, it looks like a variation of the self flaggelation, so the tattoo really comes as a surprise shocker. I suppose he found it in the gospel of Matthias? In which case I’m starting to wonder whether Scudder is identical with the tattood man who raped Appollonia and thus is Sofie’s father as well.
Celeste the new housemaid will inevitably end up being the person Justin actually does have sex with, methinks. No strong will, no back-up, and not his sister. It’s interesting, though, that Justin even after deciding on the left-hand-of-God path still doesn’t permit himself to consumate his feelings for Iris. I wonder whether it’s to punish her (and himself) for the fate of the children; he certainly hasn’t forgotten or forgiven, judging by him looking directly at her when listing their names in the church dedication.
Management/The Russian Soldier says it would be “an abomination” to let himself be healed by Justin and resists the temptation, barely, but he resists. Why an abomination? Because he’s a champion of the previous generation who failed in his task? And while I’m on the subject, the voice sounds female to me. Were it not for Ben’s dreams in which the Russian Soldier is distinctly male, I’d suppose Management is female. Otoh we only have Management’s words about being identical with the Russian Soldier, so, who knows?
LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-08 11:13 pm (UTC)And of course, how would that affect Eowyn? Leaving aside even her romantic crush on Aragorn, would it affect her any differently to see a woman coming as the great hero to save the day? If, say, she were still straight and so didn't sexually crush on female!Aragorn (but still fangirl Aragorn as a hero), would she feel as rejected when she couldn't go on the Paths of the Dead? And would that influence her decision to ride off to Minas Tirith as Dernhelm?
And if we're going to do LOTR genderswapping--what would a female Gandalf look like?
--Nenya, surprised to find this interesting her as more than just a bad-slash cliche
Re: LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-09 07:40 am (UTC)This is why it's so much harder to genderswap female characters - their characters are so often explicitly based on sexism, either submitting to it or rebelling against it.
But, I think Eowyn would still make all the same decisions if she didn't crush on Aragorn. There were plenty of other good reasons for her to want to ride to battle.
I don't think a female Gandalf would be implausible at all.
Re: LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-10 01:11 pm (UTC)This is why it's so much harder to genderswap female characters - their characters are so often explicitly based on sexism, either submitting to it or rebelling against it.
I hadn't considered that. But as you say:
I think Eowyn would still make all the same decisions if she didn't crush on Aragorn. There were plenty of other good reasons for her to want to ride to battle.
Which is one of the things I like about her--sure, being in love with Aragorn and his being unavailable might give her the final kick that makes her say, "The hell with this depressing, pointlessness! I'm going to DO something about all the problems my people are facing, not just sit around in the shadows worrying!" But it's been building for a long time, as she watches Theoden deteriorate before her very eyes; that's one reason why I don't think it's a cop-out for her to marry Faramir and say that she's putting up her sword to be a healer. Once the war is over, and you've done the great deeds and killed people because you had to, it's perfectly normal and healthy to want to build and heal and make things better. If she were still angry and depressed at the end of the story, something would be wrong; being able to do something and make a difference on the battlefield was as much a part of her healing as meeting Faramir.
But forgive me, I rant. Am very pro-Faramir/Eowyn. :)
Female Gandalf would actually make even more sense than just about any other genderswap, wouldn't it? I mean, the Maiar choose their forms, and while gender (or an equivalent--the Ainur come in two distinct kinds, if I recall my Silm correctly) is part of the nature of the Ainur, they don't seem to have a huge gender gap. Can't see any reason in the secondary reality why the five that were chosen to go to ME & fight Sauron all had to be male. Except that they'd have to be fairly hardy female bodies, given that they travelled everywhere.
I'd rather have someone write this kind of thing than stick a Mary Sue in the Fellowship, if they're concerned about sexism in LOTR. Viva girl!Gandalf!
Re: LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-10 09:54 pm (UTC)Re: LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-10 09:57 pm (UTC)Re: LOTR genderflips
Date: 2005-02-16 12:56 pm (UTC)