Pirates!

[selenak]

Second entry of the day, because now, post-Bayreuth, I FINALLY managed to see the second Pirates movie. And now having checked some other reactions, I guess I have another case of having fallen for the least popular character in the fandom. Because guess whom I adored in this one, having liked her already in Curse of the Black Pearl? That's right. Elizabeth.



When she chained Jack up to leave him for the kraken, she joined my pantheon containing the likes of Emma Frost, Irina Derevko, Winn Adami, Laura Roslin and other smart manipulative, ruthless women who are completely capable of behaving dastardly in order to get what they want. This, btw, does not mean I approve of each of their actions, or don't feel sorry for those on the other other hand of the dastardly treatment. (Says she who loves the likes of Arvin Sloane and Londo Mollari as well.) In this particular case, I must admit to a certain gleefulness, though, because a certain type of male character preaching to a female character of how she needs to be honest and show the rogue within (say, Rhett Butler) just makes me want to slap him in the face with the result, because usually said character then expects the female to be ruthless with everyone else, just not him. Anyway, Dead Man's Chest is generally a darker film - in an early scene of the first movie, we see a few skeletons swinging in the wind, in the the second, we get men's eyes picked out in those cages, and that pretty much sets the tone. I remember debates on the first film wanting to have its cake and eat it by presenting nice pirates (Jack) and bad pirates (Barbossa & crew). Here, what with cut throats left and right and Jack being willing to trade both Will and 99 other men for his own freedom for quite a while, that's not an issue.

That's another thing I loved: call it the undermining of the Jack Sparrow, lovable rogue image. One of the reasons why Han Solo over at Star Wars pretty much left me cold is that he was pretty much the cynic with a heart of gold, the kind of "ambiguous" character it's safe to love because he never does anything truly nasty, we know he'd never really abandon his friends, and most importantly, we never see any victims of supposed ruthless decisions he made in the past. Here, both Jack and Elizabeth are shown as ambiguous in a way that doesn't give such a safe "out". Jack does leave Will to Davy Jones, and the other (short lived) survivors have faces, too. Elizabeth gets Will, the crew of the Black Pearl and herself safely on shore not by risking/sacrificing the life of random redshirt X, she does it by tricking and sacrificing the universally beloved Jack Sparrow. Even bit players like what-was-their-name-again, the clownish duo, have their moment of darkness, the brief scene where Elizabeth is unarmed and they're alone with her. And you remember they are pirates, professional cutthroats and yes, probably rapists, too.

On a more shallow note, someone must have noticed in the first movie that Keira Knighley looked great in male seaman's get up during that short sequence she wore it on Norrington's ship, and put it to good use by letting her wear said wardrobe for most of the movie. As opposed to many an actress, she looked androgynous enough in it to make the get up convincing.

Speaking of looks, Jack Davenport pulls off the scruffy one for Norrington smolderingly. The good Commodore had his fans already after movie one, being one avoided cliché - i.e. instead of the stuffy evil fiancé, he was the decent honorable fiancé - but now I'd be surprised if there wasn a middle season 3 (of Angel) Wesley Wyndham-Pryce effect. It's funny, DMC seems to have resulted in an explosion of Jack/Elizabeth fic for obvious reasons (though in reviews Elizabeth still seems to fare worst in terms of condemnation), but what I really want to read is Elizabeth 'n James. Their brief scenes were fascinating to me, and I loved both that she stopped him from taking on the tavern drunk by knocking him out and that she went after him later to collect him from mud. I want a missing scene ficlet for what happens after her "James Norrington, what has life done to you" and before she shows up with him in tow at the Black Pearl. Conversely, their scene with Norrington making his pointed remark about just how Will ended up on Davy Jones' ship was fab, displaying James N. in his intelligence and newfound level when interacting with Elizabeth (they couldn't be further from the couple at Port Royal just before she fell in the sea). One more thing about Norrington: having outsmarted Jack, I fully expect him to deal with East India Company Guy next, possibly in collusion with (Ex-)Governer Swann, who was great in this movie, too.

The downside of things? Well, like virtually everyone else has said, the cannibals' island sequence was completely superfluous. I take it they also caused a debate about racism. What it did remind me of was of course the Ewoks sequence in RotJ, but Ewoks don't have a history of slavery going on at exactly the same time this movie is supposedly set.

(Star Wars homages galore in this movie; aside from the obvious Jack-with-kraken/Han-in-carbonite, we have Bootstrap Bill Turner as a milder version of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader (does that make Davy Jones Palpatine?), and hey, a female Yoda in the swamp.)

Also, a lot of set-ups, as is a film's wont if the makes know there'll be a sequel, for which we have to wait regarding the pay-off; the whole story of Davy Jones' getting his heart broken by a woman, obviously. (My bet is on Yoda, err, Tia Dalmas.) Also the letters that were in the chest; Elizabeth read one quickly while the boys were arguing, and I wonder whether she'll have learned something that will come in handy when dealing with Jones. And of course: Barbossa. Able to eat apples, so presumably not around by virtue of having become undead again.

All in all, I enjoyed watching it, and am looking forward to the next one.

Comments

[penknife.livejournal.com]

I loved Elizabeth in Dead Man's Chest -- well, I loved everybody, really, and I agree with you that Norrington is fabulous in it, but particularly Elizabeth -- for the same reason lots of people seem to hate her; she's got a hard, ruthless streak that matches Jack's own. While I don't expect everyone to like her -- I mean, she did chain Jack up to be eaten by the kraken -- it gets on my nerves when people who hate her then give Jack a free pass for screwing over Will. (And, for that matter, rewatching the second movie last night reminded me that Will is the one who hits Jack over the head with an oar, leaves him to Barbossa, and tells his crew "he fell behind." Even Will, who's the most genuinely decent of the three of them, is not an angel.)

I think it was a darker movie, in which no one behaves very well (with the exception of Will, most of the time), and I think one of the challenges for these characters in the third movie will be to find their way to some kind of mutual trust. It's all so interesting. *is in the throes of fannish infatuation*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Agreed, and I thought of Will using the "he fell behind" line in the first movie as well.

I think another reason why I'm so heads over heels about Elizabeth in particular is that she could have been so easily the love interest typical for Bruckenheimer movies, not interesting in herself, just for the hero/heroes to pine over - and that female characters rarely get to display this kind of ruthless pragmatism, unless they're meant to be the villains, which she is not.

[wychwood]

*waves hand*

Me too! I thought Elizabeth was awesome :)

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

Oh, good to see you enjoyed the movie, too! I posted at length about it on my LJ, because I found it fascinating on so many levels despite its flaws. (I didn't list the racism charge, because it's always tricky. But I can't help finding it odd that everyone who wasn't white in Jack's crew just died rather quickly. Plus I miss Anamaria.)

Regarding Elizabeth: I agree. She has become a fascinating character. She's manipulative - but so is Jack and on a much larger scale, too. My take on that final scene between her and Jack was that she does it in order to protect Will/get revenge for the dangers Jack put Will through.

What I love about both POTC movies is that all characters are drawn very well and refuse to be pressed into neat little boxes. Everyone can be both honorable and manipulative, generous and self-serving. The most honest character this time around is Will who most of the times announces what he wants to do, but of course has to become a thief in order to protect Elizabeth.
Love (!!!) the character development for all the main characters.

POTC is one of the movies where I can imagine the four main characters Jack, Will, Elizabeth and Norrington in every possible combination of pairings including OT3s and OT4.
To me Elizabeth/Jack feels too much like brother/sister after POTC II for me though. (If they were vampires, I'd love to see them paired off, of course. ;-)) Elizabeth/Norrington would be interesting, too. After all, Norrington suddenly isn't Mr Starched and Perfect any longer, but should fit the piratey vision Elizabeth always wanted as a husband. :-) My favorite pairing will always be "I knew you'd warm up to me, mate."-Sparrington. :-)

Word about the Star Wars parallels. Had to think about Vader and Luke during the Bootstrap and Will scenes. Davy Jones is more Phantom of the Opera than Palpatine, though. Unlike Cutler Beckett, Davy Jones might get a chance at redemption.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

POTC is one of the movies where I can imagine the four main characters Jack, Will, Elizabeth and Norrington in every possible combination of pairings including OT3s and OT4.

Me, too, which is odd for me -- I am usually an OTP writer, or at least attached to a few different pairings that aren't mutually exclusive. But I am happily turning the PotC triangle/quadrangle round in all different directions. (I still haven't quite wrapped my head around Sparrington, but the time may come.)

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's rare for me as well. I think is that each characters shares some traits with all the others and at the same time is the exact opposite in some other ways. E.g. for both Will and Norrington honor is important, but one is young and naive, the other older, more experienced and realistic. Elizabeth can be as naive as Will - reading novels about pirates, dreaming of the pirate life, but is much more manipulative/smart than he is. In this regard, she matches Jack or Norrington in DMC.

Re. Sparrington: I posted about Sparrington after DMC in my livejournal. What made me see the possibility in CotBP was the e.g. the "rooting for your" scene, the first meeting between Jack and Norrington where Norrington gets all sarcastic and they both act like it's a hair pulling contest. Oh, and the fact that Jack invades Norrington's personal space and Norrington doesn't seem bothered.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I wonder what became of Annamaria, too. Grr. Argh.

My take on that final scene between her and Jack was that she does it in order to protect Will/get revenge for the dangers Jack put Will through.

That, and for the reason she names - the kraken isn't after the ship, it's after Jack. Chances are that if Jack had been on board that lifeboat, they'd never have made it on shore. However, I'm not sure that if Elizabeth had not found out earlier that Jack had been perfectly to trade Will to Davy Jones, and undoubtedly would be again, she'd have been capable to make that final step. Maybe, maybe not.

Re Elizabeth/Jack as brother and sister - I agree with whoever said that it's not so much that Elizabeth wants Jack but that she wants to be Jack. He's freedom personified, and that she has always longed for. Of course, he's also ruthlessness and self-servingness, and now she has seen what that freedom makes her. And yes, they're similar like siblings, or, as Jack put it in the cut scene from the first movie, peas in a pod. Maybe somewhat incestous siblings, but still siblings. True that either works with Norrington, too.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I agree with whoever said that it's not so much that Elizabeth wants Jack but that she wants to be Jack. He's freedom personified, and that she has always longed for. Of course, he's also ruthlessness and self-servingness, and now she has seen what that freedom makes her. And yes, they're similar like siblings, or, as Jack put it in the cut scene from the first movie, peas in a pod. Maybe somewhat incestous siblings, but still siblings.

Yes. What you said.

The thing about those kind of relationships is that I can see them going in any direction, depending on the circumstances -- sibling relationships that feel incestuous, romantic relationships that seem like that John Denver song "Sometimes I think we're drifters, just searching for a friend, a brother or a sister, but then the passion flares again."

I suppose that to me any relationship that is sufficiently close could be romantic -- ie, there isn't anyone really that I feel close to that I wouldn't sleep with under the right circumstances. Which may make me a Little Black Dress, but get it emotionally.

Peas in a Pod.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

SEE WHY I LOVE IT!!!!!!

I just had to run write Elizabeth. And Jack. Because damn I love predatory pairings! It punches all my little buttons that way -- outsider outlaw who's not so sweet, 18th century girl in boy's clothes, and FREEDOM! Not to mention enough queer subtest to sink a ship, androgyny and genderfuck all over the place, and battles between tall ships. I've been writing like a mad thing in this fandom for two weeks and just started a long story about Tia Dalma and New Orleans.

Oh come with me on this trip, Evil Twin! We haven't shared a fandom since X Men! (unless you count Napoleon as a fandom, which seems a stretch....) *bounces in a general north-easterly direction*

And yes, Star Wars all over the place!!!!!

[eirena.livejournal.com]

*grins* I'm so delighted that you enjoyed the film so much. The darker elements excited me greatly - it's always fun to see how far a character will go when pushed, and Jack, Norrington and Elizabeth personified this intriguingly. (Will has honestly never been that interesting to me. Oh well.)

I, too, was vexed by the hypocrisy of most fans condemning Elizabeth for ruthlessness and then praising Jack for the same. Often seems the fate of female characters in fandom, though.

Did you want me to dig out some fic recs?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I, too, was vexed by the hypocrisy of most fans condemning Elizabeth for ruthlessness and then praising Jack for the same. Often seems the fate of female characters in fandom, though.

Alas yes. In my early lj days, I wrote a rant about it somewhere.

Will: is the Vaughn of the fandom to me. Which says it all. *veg*

Fic recs are always welcome, and I'm already checking out those by artaxastra for starters.

[eirena.livejournal.com]

Oh, and, PS: I absolutely loved Sloane's letter to Syd over at f_m :)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I was thinking of you when writing it...

Kickass Elizabeth recs

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3047157/1/

No Survivors

http://monimala.livejournal.com/215092.html

Burning for a Cause

http://monimala.livejournal.com/222427.html

For the Wicked

These are three very interesting Elizabeth ones that I thought you would particularly like.

You know, I think Elizabeth is very hot. I'm kind of crushing on her. She is so not my pov character, though. Jack is. Which I'm sure says some pretty strange things about my head.

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[penknife.livejournal.com]

... although you keep writing Elizabeth POV. I'd love to see what you did with Jack's narrative voice, at some point.

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I'm going to get there. His narrative voice isn't very descriptive, I don't think, and he'd be easier to do in first person. Not very descriptive for the same reasons Charles Xavier can be a pain in the patootie in the first person.

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[penknife.livejournal.com]

Not very descriptive for the same reasons Charles Xavier can be a pain in the patootie in the first person.

... while I do actually know what you mean, I think you win some sort of prize for Characters Least Likely to Be Compared to Each Other.

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recs! Re: voice, note that Doyle picked Watson, not Holmes as the narrator. The one story with first person Holmes narration doesn't make him look nearly as interesting. There are characters which work far better from the outside because the mystique is part of the appeal.

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

Yes. The mystique is. No pun intended!

It kind of surprises me how easy it is for me to find Jack. I suppose it shouldn't though, since he has so much in common with Charles/Elza.

I think one of the things is that his real backstory, whatever that is, is much grimmer and much less romantic than all the stories he's told or had told about him in the series I've been doing this week. Much grimmer, much less about Jack As The Big Hero. I think geekturnedvamp would tell me that I was getting grotesque if I wrote some of it, and it wouldn't be in the spirit of the fandom so much. (She says "artaxastra, only you could describe comfort!sex with a one-legged man with PTSD as light fluff!")

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[geekturnedvamp.livejournal.com]

I would NOT. I've made exactly one icon for this fandom three years ago and I'm going to let it speak for me here, 'cause while I did think that there were times when DMC could have done with more character development and less tentacles, I am all about Jack's grim backstory so bring. it. ON. *g*

She says "artaxastra, only you could describe comfort!sex with a one-legged man with PTSD as light fluff!"

Which is true, but you left out the part about it being a romance novel and your submitting it to Harlequin.

I don't see Elizabeth as having gotten to be an Emma Frost/Irina Derevko/Winn Adami/Laura Roslin type yet, for the simple reason that all of those women are older in both age and--much more importantly--experience. Elizabeth is still too young, too close to the ingenue she started as, but the seeds are obviously there... which brings me to your point about Elizabeth/Norrington, because YES, I also want to read that so badly. (I loved James in the first movie, and loved him just as much if not more in this one; someone was telling me spoilers for the third movie and the one thing they didn't know is what happens with Norrington, and I was just like, but--don't you understand that's the most important PART? I guess we'll just have to make do with fanfiction in the meantime).

Re: Kickass Elizabeth recs

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

I did think that there were times when DMC could have done with more character development and less tentacles, I am all about Jack's grim backstory so bring. it. ON. *g

OK! You asked for it! *g*

Less tentacles, more grim woe.

Which is true, but you left out the part about it being a romance novel and your submitting it to Harlequin.

Yes, this is so! Ok, yes. Perhaps not quite Harlequin material!

Elizabeth is still too young

Yes. It will take her a decade to get there. And she's looking for the transformative experience, for the person who will help her be who she wants to be. That's the reason I'm shipping her and Jack right now -- I don't think Will can take that role because he's not there himself, and I think Norrington is too much in the middle of his own crisis right now. Which is not to say that I can't see either ship down the road, but I think Jack is what she's looking for at this point in her life.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

I love Elizabeth too, and for the same reasons. I didn't even know anyone hated her--but alas, it does not surprise me that people would hate her for the same reasons they love Jack Sparrow.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

A representive post for anti-Elizabeth feeling (which is of course anyone's right, I just happen to disagree entirely):

http://mimesere.livejournal.com/584958.html

Not, it should be noted, by someone who loves Jack most, though.

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

I loved the film too, and I've always liked Elizabeth. She was wonderful in this. Apparently the sequel will be out at the end of the year; they filmed both together. Yay!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Yay indeed, except that kathyh said next May? Which would mean later than that for my German self....

[vilakins.livejournal.com]

Aaaugh!Arrrrrr! That's a long time to wait. Why, if they've already filmed it?

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of that. I'm a bit on tenterhooks for the third film about whether they can tie it all up convincingly.

On ruthlessness, it's definitely less shocking if you've seen the DVD deleted scenes for the first film that include all of Elisabeth's moral ambiguity that got cut out. But I'm sure I saw someone insisting that Jack was just stalling with the "souls of a hundred men" thing and would never really go through with it.

[artaxastra.livejournal.com]

My guess is that Jack is spinning plans, as he usually does, and he has no idea what he's going to do when the time comes. It might be any of four or five things. But I don't think he would never go through with it -- he could live with it, though he might rather avoid it.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised, and also with artaxastra on that one - he probably had several plans in the air, but it was his default option, and he would have gone through with it.

[kathyh]

I enjoyed the film very much, though I thought it was too long, and I really liked what they did with Elizabeth. She is far more a true pirate than Will could ever be, or would want to be, so I shall be fascinated to see how they are going to resolve the various relationships. I cannot see Elizabeth going back to her own life now or being happy with the life that Will would want to offer her. Like Jack she seems to want freedom more than anything and that doesn't appear to be the driving force behind Will's actions. Shame we'll have to wait until next May to find out how it's all going to be tied up.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Indeed. penknife last night posted a great Elizabeth vignette on this her impending dilemma. Mind you, given these films are Disney, I think it's likely they will end with a wedding anyway, though then again, they've surprised me with how Elizabeth got written so far...

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

Another voice in support of Elizabeth here. I loved the scene where she pretends to faint, and we see the guys having their three-way fight from her point of view, sideways, and then she gets up and does her own thing.

There's a great essay about her character here (http://monimala.livejournal.com/212515.html).

Her incredible swordfighting skillz were a bit much, though, since it seems she wouldn't have had that much time to practice.

I was just looking at the IMDb to try to see if they said how much time passes between the 1st and 2nd movie, and found this in the trivia section:

"While the script for the second movie was being written, Keira Knightly suggested the scene between Jack and Elizabeth where Jack is handcuffed to the ship."

Keira Knightley, you rule.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That is a terrific essay, thanks for linking! And amen to the pseudo fainting scene, and the whole silliness of the male posturing commented in one shot.*g*

Keira Knightley clearly does.

[kernezelda]

Ditto, ditto, ditto. I love Elizabeth. She is a pirate, and Jack's the pirate she could be. Norrington's fall was a total shock, but perfect. I am so pleased that none of these characters are whitewashed. Even good lad Will isn't above treachery to accomplish his tasks.

I bet Rygel and Davy Jones would have a ball bluffing and snarking at each other. Plus, Rygel wouldn't drown if made to walk the plank.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Indeed, and now you're making me ponder about Moya time trips (perhaps they didn't get it right the first time in Kansas when they wanted to return to the present) and a Rygel - Davy Jones negotiational confrontation!

(Though you know, John might find himself handed over to Davy Jones along with Will Turner in such a case... just temporarily, of course.*veg*)

I really like your Elizabeth icon

[crushw-eyeliner.livejournal.com]

I saw PoTC 2 in the first week it was out and had a madcap adventure to see it at a midnight showing and I was just so happy and geeky over this movie, and then life sort of interrupted, and I just never did jot down my thoughts about it. I need to see it again, to see if the distance of time and some boring analytical thoughts will tone down my affection for this installment of the series - because as much as I omg!squeed over it, it was a flawed chapter, and needed some editing and cleaning up, but I was very happy about the characterization for most of the characters. I'm glad I'm not very into the fandom so I haven't been around to see any Elizabeth bashing, as she is one of my favorites (the other one is Will, who gets either no notice or is only a pawn in the Must Slash At All Costs Sweepstakes with Captain Jack) and I think among the many threads running rampant in PotC 2, her story does overtake the Will reconnecting with his father/evolving into the noble sea merchant guise and Jack's change of heart about the sea and his place in it. I also agree that Elizabeth's thread runs parallel to Norrington's, but whereas Elizabeth has been protected (to a point) by her status in life, Norrington has been failed by the system that created his in the first place, and most of his tragedy happens off screen before we see him in his new, scabbier state.

There is just so much ground to cover for the third movie, besides what they're going to do with the betrayals, and non-dead Barbossa, and if Will will free Bootstrap from the curse and if there is going to be a horizon for him and Elizabeth, and of course Davy Jones and Beckett - that I worry that they're going to spend a little too much time on the slapstick repetition and not enough on actual plot.

But I've been pleasantly surprised by these movies and am hoping for more surprises in the third.

And I have more thoughts, but I have to see the movie again and go to sleep now, so...um, yes.

[thalia-seawood.livejournal.com]

Have you already read this (http://marinarusalka.livejournal.com/173885.html?view=2118461#t2118461) Norrington & Elizabeth story set before CotBP? I really enjoyed it.

This (http://jd-lit.livejournal.com/7865.html) new Norribeth story set during DMC is also well-written.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It is, thanks for the tip, and yes, I knew the other one...