Heroes 2.08 Four Months Ago
Nov. 13th, 2007 09:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakBoy, it was torture to wait for that one and remain unspoiled.
Firstly, allow me the flippant "poor old Caitlin" remark regarding the teaser of this episode. Asked to think of the person who means most to him in the world, Peter - who, let's remember, still has no memory of his old life except for the few fragments Angela gave him in his trip to the future plus the two or so weeks he spent with Caitlin, doing the urgent "never gonna leave you" declarations stick he did with Simone (oh, and Niki in the other dystopia), automatically concludes this must be the guy in the photo. No, they're not feeding the subtext friends at all.
Okay, seriously now. As if to answer the complaints that this season, we saw Nathan's devotion to Peter but nothing of Peter's devotion to Nathan, due to the amnesia, they're bringing it on big time. Most fanfic that speculated Peter would push Nathan away at the last second in order to save his life turns out to be right. My speculation about a Company deal turned out to be wrong, sort of; he made the deal to heal Nathan with Adam instead. But he did spent months in a cell on a self-loathing trip, giving the distinct impression he doesn't do that so much to protect the world from himself as to punish himself for having nearly killed Nathan, and then he breaks out as soon as Adam said the magic "I can heal your brother" word.
On that note: the relationship with Elle was nicely twisted and feeding into that. (And brought to mind![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
cadesama's comments re 5YG!Peter keeping Niki's feeling of loss re: Micah and DL alive to punish himself.) More about Elle herself later. It also confirms Tim Kring secretly reads fanfic and obviously thought all the depiction of Peter as a) liking pain on the receptive end, but b) being a manipulative sub were dead-on. *g*
The price for single most dysfunctional Petrelli scene goes to Angela and Heidi, though. Again, Kring must have read fanfic and wondered: hm, is there one incest pairing they haven't thought of yet?.... I know! Heid/Angela! I'm only half kidding, you guys. I mean, obviously that scene was about manipulation and feeding into the assumption Angela's power is connected to touch, and her pushing Heidi to believe her lie re: the family crazy, but come on, playing with her hair? This is so not a mother-in-law thing to do.
(However, if Nathan got healed only three weeks ago, he must have grown the Beard Of Depression at record pace.)
(It also means, I guess, that he never moved back with Heidi and the children but moved into Peter's apartment directly.)
Using Nathan's own suicide attempt speech re: Peter (oh, and the explanation about the late Mr. Petrelli she gave Peter as early as ep 2 of s1) against him was both evil and smart of Angela. And we finally get something concrete about the Haitian's relationship with her when he tells Peter she saved his life and gave him a new one once. Given that, and the Haitian taking Peter's memories and sending him to Ireland, I think it's safe to say that Angela knew all the time Peter had survived the explosion (though presumably she thought she'd never see him again and thus had lost him in a non-lethal manner), which casts her 2.01 scene with Nathan and her accusations in an even more messed up light. Seriously, every time you think that family can't get more screwed up....
Niki's storyline finally gets a solid foundation, and kudos that it wasn't a Jessica return but a new personality manifesting, making it abundantly clear that her problem really is multiple personality disorder. The fact said personality only showed up after she gave up the medication doesn't only make ensuing events her fault in a way Jessica's existence was not (as Jessica was the creation of her childhood abuse and loss), and gives her a good motive for a) seeking a cure with the Company and b) feeling the need to atone.
Speaking of the Company, Bob continues to be way more shades of grey than I thought when this season started. Yes, he's keeping Peter and Adam prisoner, but both do pose genuine threats not just to the Company but to people in general. You think at first the medication for Niki is fake, but as I said, Gina doesn't start to manifest until after Niki has stopped taking it for some weeks, and so far what the Company did with her after she came to them seems to have stabilized her. (In their own self-interest, of course, but again, not an evil overlord thing to do.) And then there's his relationship with Elle. Given what she tells Peter about her childhood doesn't sound as if she is Bob's biological daughter, the Claire parallels are even stronger. Would Elle have become a complete sociopath if not raised within the Company? We don't know. But apparantly Bob tries to restrain her ("did you have to use the full dosage?", "he's not a toy"), he's not feeding her sadism.
Elle got a bit more fleshed out here, the amoral playful child part even more emphasized than in her debut episode, but with added background, see above. Being raised within the Company might make her a sociopathic operative, but not a match for the one thing each and every Petrelli is good at, i.e. emotional manipulation, which gives her a curious innocence.
Maya y Alejandro origin story: yes, Tim, we get your sibling thing. I will say that the sight of the dead wedding guests was suitably horrifying and brought memories of Kill Bill.
And now for the man formerly known as Kensei. If he's not lying - and that's the problem with these folk, you never know how reliable their information is - he got originally locked up by his former fanclub when he wanted to go public. Hmmmmm. You know, that could almost be the truth. After 400 years, you could be hubristic enough to do that, and of course it would be a reason why the rest of them (though disagreeing with each other in other matters) would all turn against him. (Except for Maury, it appears.) On the other hand, he could simply be lying because "I think a big catastrophe would be a really nifty thing to do" would not be something that would endear him to Peter, and he needs Peter to break out of Company custody. Guess we'll find out. He did come through with the healing of Nathan, but then again, that put Peter in his debt in an unsurpassable way.
Next week: the shit hits the fan in California, and it looks like Hiro wants to change some recent history of his own...
Firstly, allow me the flippant "poor old Caitlin" remark regarding the teaser of this episode. Asked to think of the person who means most to him in the world, Peter - who, let's remember, still has no memory of his old life except for the few fragments Angela gave him in his trip to the future plus the two or so weeks he spent with Caitlin, doing the urgent "never gonna leave you" declarations stick he did with Simone (oh, and Niki in the other dystopia), automatically concludes this must be the guy in the photo. No, they're not feeding the subtext friends at all.
Okay, seriously now. As if to answer the complaints that this season, we saw Nathan's devotion to Peter but nothing of Peter's devotion to Nathan, due to the amnesia, they're bringing it on big time. Most fanfic that speculated Peter would push Nathan away at the last second in order to save his life turns out to be right. My speculation about a Company deal turned out to be wrong, sort of; he made the deal to heal Nathan with Adam instead. But he did spent months in a cell on a self-loathing trip, giving the distinct impression he doesn't do that so much to protect the world from himself as to punish himself for having nearly killed Nathan, and then he breaks out as soon as Adam said the magic "I can heal your brother" word.
On that note: the relationship with Elle was nicely twisted and feeding into that. (And brought to mind
cadesama's comments re 5YG!Peter keeping Niki's feeling of loss re: Micah and DL alive to punish himself.) More about Elle herself later. It also confirms Tim Kring secretly reads fanfic and obviously thought all the depiction of Peter as a) liking pain on the receptive end, but b) being a manipulative sub were dead-on. *g* The price for single most dysfunctional Petrelli scene goes to Angela and Heidi, though. Again, Kring must have read fanfic and wondered: hm, is there one incest pairing they haven't thought of yet?.... I know! Heid/Angela! I'm only half kidding, you guys. I mean, obviously that scene was about manipulation and feeding into the assumption Angela's power is connected to touch, and her pushing Heidi to believe her lie re: the family crazy, but come on, playing with her hair? This is so not a mother-in-law thing to do.
(However, if Nathan got healed only three weeks ago, he must have grown the Beard Of Depression at record pace.)
(It also means, I guess, that he never moved back with Heidi and the children but moved into Peter's apartment directly.)
Using Nathan's own suicide attempt speech re: Peter (oh, and the explanation about the late Mr. Petrelli she gave Peter as early as ep 2 of s1) against him was both evil and smart of Angela. And we finally get something concrete about the Haitian's relationship with her when he tells Peter she saved his life and gave him a new one once. Given that, and the Haitian taking Peter's memories and sending him to Ireland, I think it's safe to say that Angela knew all the time Peter had survived the explosion (though presumably she thought she'd never see him again and thus had lost him in a non-lethal manner), which casts her 2.01 scene with Nathan and her accusations in an even more messed up light. Seriously, every time you think that family can't get more screwed up....
Niki's storyline finally gets a solid foundation, and kudos that it wasn't a Jessica return but a new personality manifesting, making it abundantly clear that her problem really is multiple personality disorder. The fact said personality only showed up after she gave up the medication doesn't only make ensuing events her fault in a way Jessica's existence was not (as Jessica was the creation of her childhood abuse and loss), and gives her a good motive for a) seeking a cure with the Company and b) feeling the need to atone.
Speaking of the Company, Bob continues to be way more shades of grey than I thought when this season started. Yes, he's keeping Peter and Adam prisoner, but both do pose genuine threats not just to the Company but to people in general. You think at first the medication for Niki is fake, but as I said, Gina doesn't start to manifest until after Niki has stopped taking it for some weeks, and so far what the Company did with her after she came to them seems to have stabilized her. (In their own self-interest, of course, but again, not an evil overlord thing to do.) And then there's his relationship with Elle. Given what she tells Peter about her childhood doesn't sound as if she is Bob's biological daughter, the Claire parallels are even stronger. Would Elle have become a complete sociopath if not raised within the Company? We don't know. But apparantly Bob tries to restrain her ("did you have to use the full dosage?", "he's not a toy"), he's not feeding her sadism.
Elle got a bit more fleshed out here, the amoral playful child part even more emphasized than in her debut episode, but with added background, see above. Being raised within the Company might make her a sociopathic operative, but not a match for the one thing each and every Petrelli is good at, i.e. emotional manipulation, which gives her a curious innocence.
Maya y Alejandro origin story: yes, Tim, we get your sibling thing. I will say that the sight of the dead wedding guests was suitably horrifying and brought memories of Kill Bill.
And now for the man formerly known as Kensei. If he's not lying - and that's the problem with these folk, you never know how reliable their information is - he got originally locked up by his former fanclub when he wanted to go public. Hmmmmm. You know, that could almost be the truth. After 400 years, you could be hubristic enough to do that, and of course it would be a reason why the rest of them (though disagreeing with each other in other matters) would all turn against him. (Except for Maury, it appears.) On the other hand, he could simply be lying because "I think a big catastrophe would be a really nifty thing to do" would not be something that would endear him to Peter, and he needs Peter to break out of Company custody. Guess we'll find out. He did come through with the healing of Nathan, but then again, that put Peter in his debt in an unsurpassable way.
Next week: the shit hits the fan in California, and it looks like Hiro wants to change some recent history of his own...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 07:52 pm (UTC)As for Adam, if what Bob said is correct, I'm thinking Adam actually told the truth about why they locked him up--he wanted to "save the world" a la Linderman.
And yeah, this episode was filled with more Petrellicesty than I'd have thought possible. Not just the weird Angela/Heidi vibe, but Peter immediately knows Nathan's the most important person in his life, Nathan's first word upon waking is "Peter," and anytime anyone wants to manipulate one of them? Pull out the name of the other! Therapy, boys, therapy.
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Date: 2007-11-13 08:31 pm (UTC)My mouth, it was open. Like I said, if it wasn't Tim Kring trying to come up with the one incesteous Petrelli combination nobody had tried in fanfic yet, then it must have been the actresses deciding that Adrian and Milo shouldn't have all the mindmessing fun.
Peter immediately knows Nathan's the most important person in his life, Nathan's first word upon waking is "Peter," and anytime anyone wants to manipulate one of them? Pull out the name of the other! Therapy, boys, therapy.
Well, I used to joke that the only psychiatrist tough enough to take on the sheer amount of dysfunctionality of the Petrellis would be Dr. Hannibal Lecter, and that's risky. I want them alive, after all.
As for Adam, if what Bob said is correct, I'm thinking Adam actually told the truth about why they locked him up--he wanted to "save the world" a la Linderman.
As the late Obi-Wan Kenobi used to say, it is all true, from a certain point of view...
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Date: 2007-11-13 08:03 pm (UTC)Well, out of mind... (Maybe we'll see her again next season, where she, rightfully pissed off at Peter for throwing her life into chaos both directly and indirectly, does everything in her power to make his life miserable - or at least wants to until she sees his family and ultimately decides he is punished enough by being a Petrelli.)
As if to answer the complaints that this season, we saw Nathan's devotion to Peter but nothing of Peter's devotion to Nathan, due to the amnesia, they're bringing it on big time.
This was one of the instances where making this a flashback episode instead of the Season premiere actually did work for me. He really got very fixated on his quest to save Nathan, almost Noah - like, and that makes him overlook all kinds of details.
I mean, obviously that scene was about manipulation and feeding into the assumption Angela's power is connected to touch, and her pushing Heidi to believe her lie re: the family crazy, but come on, playing with her hair? This is so not a mother-in-law thing to do.
As
I don't think I've ever watched a mainstream TV show with such dysfunctional and highly metaphorical subtext...
(Are you still feeling the need to write that story btw?)
I liked the Elle - Peter and Elle - Bob scenes quite a lot and think she might turn into a pretty interesting character. I'm a little weary about who her actual parents might be (it doesn't seem to be Kensei, given his remark to Peter about her playing her games with him), but I agree that Bob seems like her adoptive Dad, parallel to Bennet. (And she is parallel to Claire down to an "origin" story that contains fire)
Adam - liked him even better than I thought I would. DA works surprisingly well in this universe.
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Date: 2007-11-13 08:14 pm (UTC)never mind that Adam, blonde as he is, probably couldn't grow facial hair for the life of him...no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 08:39 pm (UTC)This is a very good point and would make a wonderful comic relief scene. Caitlin arrives, armed to the teeth for revenge, and then experiences one meal with the Petrellis, perhaps when the boys are finally having it out with Angela, and then concludes she can't do worse than that, and departs.
As cadesama said, at least now we know why Peter and Nathan touch each other (and other people) if they want to be convincing. They simply learned that it works this way.
They totally did, and now they're doing it automatically without conscious decision, having absorbed the mannerism as children.
Are you still feeling the need to write that story btw?
*coughs* Yes. I blame the show. And afterwards, Heidi will definitely not be in the mood to go anywhere near a Petrelli again for a good long while.
I agree that Bob seems like her adoptive Dad, parallel to Bennet. (And she is parallel to Claire down to an "origin" story that contains fire)
Yes, I noticed that, and I wouldn't exclude Bob having been the Company Man sent after her a la Bennet and Claire, too. Re: her biological parents, before this episode, I saw people speculating it could be Meredith and Some Other Guy Than Nathan, making her Claire's half-sister, but if Elle is 24, then I doubt it - Meredith isn't old enough.
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Date: 2007-11-14 07:17 am (UTC)I love that they retroactively incorporated something that the actors developed in a very logical manner. They really have an eye for these little textural things.
*coughs* Yes. I blame the show. And afterwards, Heidi will definitely not be in the mood to go anywhere near a Petrelli again for a good long while.
I would definitely still read it. *looks shiftily*
Re: her biological parents, before this episode, I saw people speculating it could be Meredith and Some Other Guy Than Nathan, making her Claire's half-sister, but if Elle is 24, then I doubt it - Meredith isn't old enough.
Definitely not her mother, but her sister, maybe? That would make Elle Claire's aunt. Of course it would be a little twee if Elle and Peter seriously go down the relationship road. (Which I really hope not, in danger of being slaughtered by 12 and cadesama. Elle is just way too immature and crazy right now.)
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Date: 2007-11-14 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-14 09:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-14 09:58 am (UTC)(At least now I know why the idea of Niki having the virus while coming to the Company seemed that plausible to me.)
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Date: 2007-11-14 09:51 am (UTC)Hey now! And I the type to slaughter people?
... don't answer that.
Seriously, I do agree that she's too immature right now (crazy is less of a problem for me, since it is Peter we're talking about), but I truly think they are playing long term for Peter and Elle. In part because they saw Claire/West and Hiro/Yaeko go down like lead balloons, so they are going to test the waters with new 'ships before committing, and partly because it looks like she's set on a course that will actually help develop her and make her more mature through inaction with other characters. Plus, we haven't seen Peter shock her back yet, and we all know that's got to happen.
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Date: 2007-11-14 11:51 am (UTC)Definitely not her mother, but her sister, maybe? That would make Elle Claire's aunt.
Thereby giving us yet another twisted family relationship.*g* But yes, that would work, age-wise. And would add an interesting dimension to Meredith's "when in doubt, run" tendency, if her sister ended up tagged and Company-fied after their grandmother's house burned down.
Which I really hope not, in danger of being slaughtered by 12 and cadesama. Elle is just way too immature and crazy right now.
I do suspect that the painting which makes Bennet sweat so much shows Bob, Elle and Peter rather than himself, Claire and West, but I doubt they'll let him have an actual romance with her this season. Besides, didn't we establish that Peter = girlfriend kryptonite?
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Date: 2007-11-15 07:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-15 08:43 pm (UTC)a) one middle-aged paunchy alien who by making a fatal decision is responsible for a horrible war (Londo Mollari, Babylon 5)
b) one Machiavellian middle-aged ex-agent/evil overlord/back to agent again, obsessed with a dead Italian Renaissance prophet (Arvin Sloane, Alias - never cared much for Sark/David Anders, but OMG Sloane/Ron Rifkin, I love you)
c) One evil vampire (Darla) who spent most of her four centuries killing people and playing mind games, and
d) her emotionally unstable raised in a hell dimension offspring (Connor).
Your taste is totally harmless in comparison.
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Date: 2007-11-15 07:26 pm (UTC)Re: Caitlin. I have had enough of her to last me for several lifetimes to come, and I would willingly put up with any number of dropped plot points if it means that we'll never see her again. Heh. To think I quite liked her in 2.02.
Re: Peter/Elle. I would never slaughter anyone! [/Hiro voice] *G* Hee. I started shipping these two before I knew quite how psychotic they were going to make Elle. I thought she was going to be more like Gwen, from Angel. I agree that Elle is way too immature for a relationship (as for crazy, well...*veg*) right now. But I would very much like her to meet Peter again, and for their dynamic to be explored more, because I find it fascinating. And not just for shallow reasons. :D Really, it doesn't have to get shippy--as long as it's dysfunctional and fun and allows the writers to showcase some of the most interesting aspects of both characters, I will be happy. That's really what delighted me about their scenes in this episode. Each scene gave us something *new*, unlike Peter's scenes in Ireland, which gave us the same thing over and over again. Elle's childish outlook on life, her anger, her delight in torture and yet her incredible innocence in some ways. Peter's need for human connection, his masochistic tendencies, his manipulative side (both instinctively and *deliberately* manipulative, no less, which is astonishing since we've never seen the latter from him towards a non-Petrelli)...it couldn't have been better if Kring had designed it to make me flail. *sigh*
Having Elle as Claire's aunt might be worth it just to have a scene with Peter and Elle and Claire. OMG that would be awesome.
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Date: 2007-11-15 07:48 pm (UTC)Re: Caitlin. I have had enough of her to last me for several lifetimes to come, and I would willingly put up with any number of dropped plot points if it means that we'll never see her again.
*g* Even if she is no longer Peter's girlfriend?
Re: Peter/Elle. I would never slaughter anyone!
I see I think way too bad of both you and cadesama!
(as for crazy, well...*veg*)
It's the imbalance that creates problems for me. Compared to him she is quite childish, and that goes partly back to her lacking social skills and partly to her being not quite sane. (It's just a serious aversion I have, certainly not limited to these two specific characters)
Having Elle as Claire's aunt might be worth it just to have a scene with Peter and Elle and Claire. OMG that would be awesome.
Well, it's just too tempting to play Heroes relatives bingo. (Speaking of which, now that we know that powers can be passed down through the generations after all, I'm wondering about a possible Adam - Claire relation, i.e. whether he is her grandfather.)
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Date: 2007-11-16 04:45 pm (UTC)Oh yes. She's just an uninteresting character, and the actress doesn't have anything in the way of technical or aesthetic merit to make her more appealing.
Adam could end up being related to ALL of them. Heh.
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Date: 2007-11-13 09:09 pm (UTC)I was thinking when I heard Bob's explanation for why Adam imprisoned that it didn't sound plausible at all. Bob claimed that Linderman was Adam's disciple, but Linderman seemed to be completely in charge of the Company in the past. So if Adam's views were similar to Linderman's, why would Linderman keep him locked up? I was thinking that Bob remembered Nathan's rejection of Linderman's ideas at the end of last season, and wanted to make Nathan as suspicious as possible of Adam.
Adam's explanation for why he was imprisoned makes much more sense to me -- at the very least, I suspect that Adam did try to go public in a verifiable way not long before he was imprisoned, because I suspect he would try to give Peter as many facts that were true and relatively easy to verify, since he is trying to get Peter to trust him, and he expects Peter to break him out at some point. I think that was also why Adam told Peter about being 400+ years old, as well -- tell as many true facts as possible, so that whatever lies he slips in there are are harder to notice.
Of course, I also suspect that this wasn't the *only* reason Adam was imprisoned -- just the reason Adam thought Peter would sympathize with the most.
Using Nathan's own suicide attempt speech re: Peter (oh, and the explanation about the late Mr. Petrelli she gave Peter as early as ep 2 of s1) against him was both evil and smart of Angela.
I loved that! And I also loved that Angela's lies work so much better on Heidi than they did on Peter last year. Heidi might be a Petrelli, but she is a Petrelli only by marriage. She is much less versed in the ways of emotionally manipulative lies than Peter would be.
In view of how much Angela was touching Heidi and the theory that Angela needs to touch people to be able to use her power, I found it interesting how little Angela touched Peter in the last episode. After the first hug, she stood back and let Peter's healing do all the work. Maybe she didn't want to use her powers on Peter because she didn't want him to absorb them? I am suddenly gripped with an insane urge to go through the other Heroes episodes and see how much Angela touches other people, especially when she is trying to convince them of something.
Also, I find myself wondering where some of the things in that box with Peter's identity came from. For example, I know Adam gave Peter the ticket to Montreal, and Peter grabbed the picture of Nathan from Nathan's room, but I don't remember Peter getting his passport. Where did it come from? I don't think the Haitian left it, did he? So... could it have been Angela, hedging her bets -- wanting Peter safely out of the way for now, but also wanting him to have some way to remember who he was and be able to get home if she needed him to? With Peter missing, who would have the easiest access to Peter's passport but Angela, the grieving mother?
I'm going to have to watch that scene again -- I don't remember it well enough to tell for sure. It's possible I'm just forgetting a part where Peter got his passport with all his other things.
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Date: 2007-11-13 09:27 pm (UTC)Agreed.
I am suddenly gripped with an insane urge to go through the other Heroes episodes and see how much Angela touches other people, especially when she is trying to convince them of something.
In the pilot, she and Peter press their foreheads together but that's a gesture initialized by Peter as an attempt at comfort; she later slaps him in the "Nathan doesn't love you" scene when he keeps insisting Nathan does. She touches Peter in the hospital when she tells him his father was diagnosed as manic depressive and with delusions of grandeur with 23, that the heart attacks were all suicide attempts and that he finally did commit suicide. She doesn't touch Nathan - or anyone else at all right until The Hard Part, when she reveals to Nathan she's supporting Linderman's plan, and then she keeps touching him on the shoulder, which is what made people wonder to begin with.
Passport: actually, Adam hands that over to Peter together with the plane ticket. Which is either bad writing or a giveaway that Peter wasn't the only ally Adam had while still imprisoned by the Company, since someone must have procured that passport for him. And yes, that points to Angela.
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Date: 2007-11-13 09:39 pm (UTC)Oh. I knew I should have rewatched that scene before commenting! *g*
But yes, I was thinking that even Adam magically having the plane tickets so soon after escaping from the Company was already a giveaway that Peter wasn't Adam's only ally. Peter's passport, though, seems like evidence for that ally being Angela. (And the Haitian would have ready access to Adam's cell, too, so he could have dropped off both the passport and the tickets.)
I suspect that Peter would have wondered about that if the Haitian hadn't removed his memories so soon after. I'm not sure if he'll think of it now, though.
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Date: 2007-11-13 10:45 pm (UTC)Well, we know for a fact that Peter isn't his only ally. There's also Maury, who is conveniently enough, a telepath. So Peter would not have heard them communicating and solidifying their end of the plan. Adam had to have jumped directly into his death threats against the Elders, right after getting away from Elle, so it makes sense that a lot of that was plotted out with Maury before he even escaped.
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Date: 2007-11-14 06:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 10:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 09:21 pm (UTC)Well, he *is* Italian, and those Mediterranean men, y'know? ;-)
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Date: 2007-11-13 09:28 pm (UTC)(Wish I had room for
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Date: 2007-11-13 09:58 pm (UTC)That's a very good point. She likes power and likes to think she can have everything she wants, but in fact she doesn't get everything she wants (i.e men) and in the end, Peter is the one who has the power. This dynamic is so much more interesting than a typical torturer/victim would be.
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Date: 2007-11-14 05:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-13 10:46 pm (UTC)Nathan obviously has two superpowers, flying and extraordinarily speedy beard growth.
It also means, I guess, that he never moved back with Heidi and the children but moved into Peter's apartment directly
So it looks as if the only thing Nathan did to drive Heidi away was to actually tell her the truth, all the rest is down to dear old mom. Angela obviously took the Empress Livia as her role model and is trying to outdo her. I'm undecided as to how much she knows about Peter's situation but as it's Angela until I see concrete proof that she doesn't know I'm going to presume she does.
I had been presuming a much longer period of time for Nathan's slide into depression and alcoholism and, beard jokes aside, I still think a period of three weeks is a little short. On the other hand I really hadn't considered that he might have been in hospital in terrible pain for two months.
Bob continues to be way more shades of grey than I thought when this season started.
Yes, there are times when I think that he may possibly be right about some things and from his point of view locking Peter up when he can't control his powers must seem very sensible. I can now actually see why Claude was working for the Company and why he went to the lengths he did to try and get Peter to learn control. He and the Company seemed a bad fit before, but now they don't. It's all very interesting.
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Date: 2007-11-14 05:58 am (UTC)Well, you could argue that if he had told her the truth earlier - say, after Linderman healed her at the latest, when he could have demonstrated the flying thing without a sweat -, she wouldn't have believed Angela, but yes. Presumably that means Nathan thinks Heidi left him because she was horrified about the superpowers/plan to blow up New York/all other secrets things, i.e. exactly what he was afraid of before, not because Angela told her he's crazy.
I had been presuming a much longer period of time for Nathan's slide into depression and alcoholism and, beard jokes aside, I still think a period of three weeks is a little short. On the other hand I really hadn't considered that he might have been in hospital in terrible pain for two months.
It would explain, however, why he's able to quit drinking without apparant side effects when starting his investigation with Matt. If he had drunk for several months, surely that would have been harder...
Yes, there are times when I think that he may possibly be right about some things and from his point of view locking Peter up when he can't control his powers must seem very sensible.
Yes. Of course, on the dark side of shades of grey you have him mentioning that they worked on a vaccine 30 years ago and had to stop, but re-started now, which pretty much sounds like the virus Shanti died of was an artificial creation by the Company to begin with, but he's not Ming the Merciless, and might actually believe he's working for the greater good, and not in a Linderman-at-the-end-let's-use-a-New-York-wipeout kind of way.
I can now actually see why Claude was working for the Company and why he went to the lengths he did to try and get Peter to learn control. He and the Company seemed a bad fit before, but now they don't. It's all very interesting.
That's something people often overlook, that both Bennet and Claude voluntarily joined the Company - nobody blackmailed them into it - worked for years with them before getting disillusioned, and were considered to be good operatives to hire to begin with.
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Date: 2007-11-14 01:37 am (UTC)Quite. This proved, yet again, why Angela is the best character on this show. Such a magnificent bitch.
Given what she tells Peter about her childhood doesn't sound as if she is Bob's biological daughter, the Claire parallels are even stronger
I'm utterly convinced that Elle is Adam's daughter and that Claire is related to them too. So much blondeness! *g*
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Date: 2007-11-14 06:00 am (UTC)You think the show is going to give us textual incest instead of subtextual one then? Because Adam did imply he had sex with her six years ago.
and that Claire is related to them too. So much blondeness!
Hm, like I said to W., I've seen the speculation that Meredith might be Elle's mother, making Elle Claire's older half-sister, but Meredith isn't old enough if Elle is 24. However, Meredith could be Adam's daughter. Hell, given that he had 400 years time, Adam could be the ancestor of each and everyone on this show.
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Date: 2007-11-14 07:16 am (UTC)I'm convinced of it myself.
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Date: 2007-11-14 09:28 am (UTC)He didn't actually say that he had sex with her, he said that he had 'given in' to her, which I know implies sex, but it could also be a political way of saying something and meaning something else. Perhaps he gave in to a demand or a tantrum and that's how he ended up being locked up. That's reaching I know...lol!
Also, Adam has not yet proved that he is completely trustworthy, he could be lying.
I've seen the speculation that Meredith might be Elle's mother, making Elle Claire's older half-sister, but Meredith isn't old enough if Elle is 24. However, Meredith could be Adam's daughter.
I heard that too. I know some people were upset when it turned out that Kensei was white - this great Japanese hero wasn't actually Japanese - but I think Kring did that on purpose, as I refuse to believe he would be that disrespectful. I'm sure it's no coincidence that he has the same powers as Claire and the fact that he is blond too is the type of knock-you-over-the-head subtelty that TV shows often employ to demonstrate onscreen that characters are related.
Hell, given that he had 400 years time, Adam could be the ancestor of each and everyone on this show
Now that would be interesting! *g*
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Date: 2007-11-14 07:14 am (UTC)Obviously my family is somehow related to the Petrellis. You haven't seen hair grow like it does in my family. I totally believe emobeard in 3 weeks.
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Date: 2007-11-14 09:22 am (UTC)\o/
And, you know, frankly, I think he really does just kind of like getting hurt. This is the second character whose sole interaction with him was violence toward him, and he still reached out to her without an ulterior motives. And physical abuse is probably more tolerable than emotional abuse, which he is just as used to.
Given that, and the Haitian taking Peter's memories and sending him to Ireland, I think it's safe to say that Angela knew all the time Peter had survived the explosion (though presumably she thought she'd never see him again and thus had lost him in a non-lethal manner)
Yep. I think, also, with the information she has about Adam, it would be almost impossible for her not to guess that Peter was alive when Nathan was healed and a picture was missing from his room, even if the Haitian didn't tell her about what he'd done. Although... perhaps she didn't react well to that at all, and wasn't sure if Peter would recover his memories, so that's why she said Peter was dead and why the Haitian was so remorseful? Still awfully cold, to abandon Peter to his memoryless new life.
The fact said personality only showed up after she gave up the medication doesn't only make ensuing events her fault in a way Jessica's existence was not (as Jessica was the creation of her childhood abuse and loss)
I liked the way Gina, being irresponsible and childish, only emerged when Niki herself was being so irresponsible about her meds, and that's why Niki couldn't take control. It has nothing to do with the strength of her personality, which is a welcome retcon for S1.
Maya y Alejandro origin story: yes, Tim, we get your sibling thing.
LOL, yes. Especially since the two of them running out of the church looked oddly like a newly married couple running down the eilse. If only I could figure out what Kring was trying to say here!
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Date: 2007-11-14 11:30 am (UTC)I noticed that Claude/Peter 'shippers seem to be less than enamored of Elle, which strikes me as somewhat double-standardy. *veg* Because, well, yes.
Yep. I think, also, with the information she has about Adam, it would be almost impossible for her not to guess that Peter was alive when Nathan was healed and a picture was missing from his room, even if the Haitian didn't tell her about what he'd done. Although... perhaps she didn't react well to that at all, and wasn't sure if Peter would recover his memories, so that's why she said Peter was dead and why the Haitian was so remorseful?
I think she thought Peter was lost to her forever because of that, and took it out on Nathan in the "you killed your brother" scene. Until we hear otherwise, that's my speculation.
Still awfully cold, to abandon Peter to his memoryless new life.
Not if she thinks he's better off there than in New York, given all that happened, though I doubt Angela knew just where he ended up. Unless Bob filled her in on the Ireland thing, and actually, I doubt that, because by the time Elle had tracked Peter to Ireland, Angela was in jail having confessed to the murder of Kaito and thus incommunicado for Bob.
I liked the way Gina, being irresponsible and childish, only emerged when Niki herself was being so irresponsible about her meds, and that's why Niki couldn't take control.
Quite. Jessica came from her fear of not being able to defend herself and from her childhood, but Gina came from her putting the short term (enjoy her life with Micah and DL NOW) over the long term (getting cured for good).
Especially since the two of them running out of the church looked oddly like a newly married couple running down the eilse. If only I could figure out what Kring was trying to say here!
Simple. "Don't ever marry a sibling in the Heroes'verse. You won't even show up in the wedding pictures, and if you're lucky, he'll just obsess over his sibling; if you're unlucky, you end up dead at the wedding." It's a cautionary tale and an attempt to boost the appeal of only children.
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Date: 2007-11-14 11:42 am (UTC)LOL, yes. They wanted that dynamic to be something ~*~special~*~ between only Peter and Claude. Sorry guys, a lot of that is purely Peter's kinkiness.
Not if she thinks he's better off there than in New York, given all that happened, though I doubt Angela knew just where he ended up. Unless Bob filled her in on the Ireland thing, and actually, I doubt that, because by the time Elle had tracked Peter to Ireland, Angela was in jail having confessed to the murder of Kaito and thus incommunicado for Bob.
I have trouble envisioning Angela actually thinking a Petrelli is better off without the family, though. I think I'll, for the moment, go with her thinking he's better off without Company meddling, and that it's better that he's away until she can handle things and get things calmed down (as she planned with Claire). She never actually intended for him to stay away from the family permanently, and possibly not even as long as he has. Events just interfered.
Simple. "Don't ever marry a sibling in the Heroes'verse. You won't even show up in the wedding pictures, and if you're lucky, he'll just obsess over his sibling; if you're unlucky, you end up dead at the wedding." It's a cautionary tale and an attempt to boost the appeal of only children.
Clearly, the only solution is to actually marry your sibling! This will be difficult for Mohinder, I feel.
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Date: 2007-11-14 11:56 am (UTC)They should have known at the latest when we saw him in the 5YGverse with Niki, really. And it totally explains why Peter never wasted another thought on Claude once the guy had gotten the hell ouf of Dodge. He didn't see what Claude was providing as anything unique to Claude, either. *veg*
Clearly, the only solution is to actually marry your sibling! This will be difficult for Mohinder, I feel.
If your sibling is unavailable due to inconvenient early death, hooking up with a good honest cop will do, although then you'll have to deal with the fact said cop has a tendency to talk more to his partners in detection than to his domestic partners...
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Date: 2007-11-14 12:02 pm (UTC)Also explains why he was cool with Ricky so quickly after having the shit beat out of him. Violence just means you like him! Really!
If your sibling is unavailable due to inconvenient early death, hooking up with a good honest cop will do, although then you'll have to deal with the fact said cop has a tendency to talk more to his partners in detection than to his domestic partners...
Mohinder and Matt seriously need to have a Talk about this. Although I'm currently imagining hilarious scenarios where they having a meltdown because once again Mohinder sighs "~*~Peter~*~" when he sees how not dead Peter is, and Matt takes umbrage at that, resulting some, "Oh, so it's not okay for me to pine after a Petrelli, but it's okay for you?" bitching from Mohinder. :D
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Date: 2007-11-14 12:35 pm (UTC)The Haitian being another case in point? In any case, the two people it did not extend to so far were Sylar and Will. Presumably this means Peter's kink doesn't include the violent people in question hurting other people than him; that's the big turn-off. Which makes me wonder whether the fact Elle killed Ricky will mean no more sparks?
Although I'm currently imagining hilarious scenarios where they having a meltdown because once again Mohinder sighs "~*~Peter~*~" when he sees how not dead Peter is, and Matt takes umbrage at that, resulting some, "Oh, so it's not okay for me to pine after a Petrelli, but it's okay for you?" bitching from Mohinder. :D
LOL. Matt, of course, would deny having a crush, and Mohinder would quickly point out Matt graduated to a shoulder grip and a confidential eye-rolling over Bob's shoulder with Nathan, which is something that, he, Mohinder never did with either Petrelli who have a tendency to not notice him at all if he's in the room with them at the same time.
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Date: 2007-11-14 12:43 pm (UTC)More likely, I think it'll be the first time he zaps her. Adding a revenge quest (personal, guilt fueled, but not central to his motivation) is really just another excuse for sparks between them, IMHO.
LOL. Matt, of course, would deny having a crush, and Mohinder would quickly point out Matt graduated to a shoulder grip and a confidential eye-rolling over Bob's shoulder with Nathan, which is something that, he, Mohinder never did with either Petrelli who have a tendency to not notice him at all if he's in the room with them at the same time.
Didn't do either, but desperately wants to. Oh, Mo! This is why pining is bad for you! I'm sure Matt will roll his eyes at you all day long if you just ask!
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Date: 2007-11-14 02:47 pm (UTC)Not to mention Farscape!
Unsurprisingly, I liked the Heidi/Angela scenes. Oh, Petrellis....
♥
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Date: 2007-11-14 05:17 pm (UTC)The Heidi/Angela scene inspired a plot bunny. I'm trying to fend it off until the weekend due to time reasons, but it definitely won't go away.
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Date: 2007-11-14 05:19 pm (UTC)How sad. How v. sad.
0 :-)))
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Date: 2007-11-15 07:25 pm (UTC)I was completely *floored* by how utterly right they got Peter in this episode. I was starting to worry, thinking that it was just us reading too much into it, and I had to go back and watch "Nothing to Hide" and "0.07%" to reassure myself that I wasn't imagining things, but this episode really gave us every single essential aspect of Peter's characterization, the good, the bad, the crazy. I adored it.
I wonder if we're ever going to get more information on the Haitian's connection to Angela. I want to know where his loyalties really lie, I want to know what she did for him, and I want to know if they're still in contact with each other. And I agree that Angela probably knows Peter's alive (though she might now know where he is now.) This family is INSANE.
The Elle-Peter matchup was fantastic not only for the brilliant chemistry, but also for the contrast in character types. We got a wonderful progression from her being in physical control and Peter being drugged up and unresponsive, to Elle begging Peter for "just a little one." And the dynamic between a character who seems incapable of normal human interaction, who hasn't quite grown up, and a character who can't help but bond with everyone around him...it was fantastic. Elle's anger on Peter prodding her about her control issues was awesome.
The same goes for Adam and Peter. I love how believable and natural it is that this is what Kensei would have become after 400 years. The youthful joy is gone, but the hubris is still there, as is the pragmatism. And he's a manipulator on a scale that would give the Petrellis a run for their money. Once again, the contrast with Peter is what makes this match-up so fabulous. Though there are frightening parallels there, too, with their desire to do something big, to change history.
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Date: 2007-11-15 10:21 pm (UTC)The Haitian and Angela: oh yes, that's high on my list of "scenes I want to see and explanations I want to have". Possibly competing but not outranking with "Angela and another Elder, preferably Bob". Until we get more, my guess is that they are still in contact... but he hasn't told her about his and Bennet's pecadillos. Nor Bennet about Angela. He likes to keep that separate.
This family is INSANE.
See, Angela was speaking the truth when she told Heidi just that.*veg*
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Date: 2007-11-16 12:51 am (UTC)