Poll Time

[selenak]

My reply to the recent Friday Five has turned up an interesting dilemma in the comments. We all agreed that if all my choices were to fight each other, it would come to a Delenn-Laura Roslin clash of the titans, but can't agree who'd win this. (I proposed a stalemate.) So, dear flist, if you have watched both Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica, and know these two ladies have the art of talking softly and acting ruthlessly, of making potential enemies their bitches and of making the opposition look bad no matter whether said opposition might have a point or two, of doing just about everything if "the greater good" demands it down to a T as their canon selves: if they both turned dark side (how could you tell, uttered one commentator), and fought each other, who'd win?


[Poll #1116414]

Pray explain your choice in the comments.

Comments

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I think Delenn would win. She has the weight of history behind her, the convoluted weavings of the Gray Council and the politics of the B5 universe to make her truly Machiavellan. She has the conviction of someone who knows absolutely that she is on the path chosen by destiny, and no one better get in her way. Laura has a lot of the same characteristics, but she hasn't had nearly the experience of time that Delenn has. Plus, I think Laura is just a little less sure of herself than Delenn, because she fell into leadership, where Delenn was groomed for leadership by Dukat.
So, Delenn for the win.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

Delenn, absolutely, because she's not really that far off darkside to begin with. At least, in a way, she was aligned with one extreme of a two-sided argument - whereas Roslin is diametrically opposed to the Cylons.

Also, Delenn kept a lot of stuff to herself for many years, whereas I never think of Roslin as quite so duplicitous - her rigging the election notwithstanding.

Roslin's power comes mostly when she has support for one thing or another, whereas I think Delenn has a lot of people to do her bidding at a snap of her fingers.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

Roslin seduced the two of the most powerful military leaders (the Adamas) to her side without having to sex either one of them. She saved the human remnant by just saying, "We need to make babies, not war." She survived a military coup, got her power back, then two years later after trying to steal an election, led a rebellion and, basically. installed herself as Dictator for Life. And she did it all with fabulous hair.

She did all of this, after having been the freaking Secretary of Education. That's like winning Wimbledon after teaching *yourself* how to play tennis at the Y. Roslin has guts, intelligence, ruthlessness, sharp political instincts, and the steely conviction of a religious zealot.

Delenn defeated the gods, started a revolution, and installed her dumb-but-well-intentioned husband as leader of an empire. She deserves mad props for that, but given the same tools and training, what could Roslin have accomplished?

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

You think that the politics of education are simple? Oh boy... EVERYONE has an opinion about education, about the one thing that they'll always agree is that the current system isn't working. This makes the post a complete minefield, and it's usually only given to (a) politicians on the way out, in hopes that the stress will kill them and (b) fairly high-powered politicos on the rise, to give them a taste of complex issues.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

In your previous meme on this topic, I chose Laura over Delenn.

Delenn strikes me as someone who gets away with too much. You listed some of the terrible things she has done (including attempted genocide), but she never really suffers consequences. This, along with the occasional Christ imagery, and her aristocratic vibe makes me like Roslin more. I get the sense that Delenn was groomed for power for many years. I have no fascination with the Royals, the Kennedys, the Clintons, or the Bushes. I guess I'm American enough to prefer the "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps against all odds" mythology that Roslin embodies.

I agree that Delenn is more powerful and has the unique ability to make her enemies love her. Upon reflection, I'd like to change my response. Delenn trumps Roslin is a head to head battle...

BUT

If the two women started on a level playing field in the awesome crossover AU I'm constructing in my head, not only would Roslin beat Delenn, she'd nuke the Shadows and the Vorlons before they could go beyond the Rim, ensuring those bastards would *never* come back.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Slightly OT since it has nothing whatsoever to do with Laura and Delenn, but in what sense do the Clintons qualify as aristocrats? He's a nobody from Hope, Arkansas, and she's a completely self-made woman as well. Neither had a family which was rich or a political dynasty like the Kennedys or the Bushes. One can argue about their politics etc., but to me they pretty much define "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps against all odds" in terms of where they come from?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And now the on topic reply: in terms of sympathy or interest for a character, I'd go for Roslin, too (check out my icons - there are three displaying her, and only one with Delenn, and that one is also a Londo icon), but that's not what I asked. I honestly think it would be a stalemate, because while they're similar in many ways, each woman has advantages the other doesn't have - Laura Roslin had to go against much greater odds from the start, and is better at fleeing (if she has to) to survive and fight another day, Delenn has more experience in integrating various very different entities in her support system. I'd say both are equally good at deliberately using prophecies for their benefit while also seriously believing in same.

Laura, Shadows and Vorlons: well yes, she would do that, except that it wouldn't work because one of the points of the Shadow War was that you couldn't defeat either bastard in a military way; they had ridiculously superior weaponry, and unless Laura got her hands on either Vorlon or Shadow tech on a massive scale, her human weaponry would probably be effectless. However, I could see her using, say, Lyta, to infect at least the Vorlons and possibly the Shadows too with some biological weaponry that made sure they'd all die of it, i.e. the virus solution...

Delenn would win

[natoth.livejournal.com]

«   »

I think Delenn would win. She has the weight of history behind her, the convoluted weavings of the Gray Council and the politics of the B5 universe to make her truly Machiavellan. She has the conviction of someone who knows absolutely that she is on the path chosen by destiny, and no one better get in her way. Laura has a lot of the same characteristics, but she hasn't had nearly the experience of time that Delenn has. Plus, I think Laura is just a little less sure of herself than Delenn, because she fell into leadership, where Delenn was groomed for leadership by Dukat.
So, Delenn for the win.

midnightsjane

I think so, too.

Re: Delenn would win

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I went with Delenn, just because JMS seems to constantly stack the decks in her favor. All her risky moves turn out well, and she always turns out to have been right all along. Laura Roslin, OTOH, sometimes wins and sometimes loses, and sometimes RDM allows her to make judgement calls that turn out to be incorrect (like rigging the election) or that we don't know are correct (like prohibiting abortion). Then again, we know the end of Delenn's character arc and we don't know the end of Laura Roslin's.

I also think that of the two of them, Delenn is more likely to retire from Dark Overlordship eventually. Roslin, if she gets it, will hold on to it until it is pried from her cold, dead fingers

Any thoughts as to how Kai Winn would match up?

Re: Delenn would win

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Alas, I fear for her Eminence, because either lady would figure out Winn Adami's Achilles heel and pounce mercilessly. To wit: the awareness and frustration that her gods did not choose her. Laura Roslin might have had some doubts about the whole religion and prophecy thing at the start, but not any longer, and I don't think Delenn ever had religious doubts. She had doubts about herself (near the end of the Earth/Minbari war, obviously, and also during "Atonment"), and about her alliances (when the Vorlons revealed their true colours at the start s4), but that's not the same thing. She did not worship the Vorlons. Both Roslin and Delenn would figure out how not being chosen by the Prophets hurt Kai Winn and would use that against her, and thus either lady would defeat her.

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Can't vote, because I see a stalemate too :) (which may mean also destruction for both)

[neuralclone.livejournal.com]

Let's see: both Delenn and Roslin have flirted with genocide, indulged in a little torture, and have the respective military commanders of their universes eating out of the their hands. And they both believe they're on a Mission from the Gods, inspired by prophecy. I think it would be a very close contest either way,

However, I'm voting for Roslin, because she has come the furthest with the least support (not least from their respective writers!) She doesn't have the Grey Council, the Rangers, or the Vorlons supporting her. She started out as Secretary of education for heaven's sake! In fact Roslin had little on her side but her own patience and cunning. On a level playing field, I suspect she would come out the winner over Delenn.

(Now does anybody else who would win in a Baltar vs. Londo faceoff? %-)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Baltar vs Londo isn't even a question. I am inexplicably fond of Gaius, but My Darling Londo is a professional politician and actually really good at it if he tries. Let's not forget it was Londo who put the alliance together to begin with to support Sheridan & Delenn, and who successfully organized a conspiracy against Cartagia which might have started with only him and Vir but ended with him and the most important surviving ministers, and of course this ended with Londo as PM. Oh, and then there is the Refa poisoning/blackmail as an example of Londo dealing with opponents if doesn't want to kill them yet, and the death-by-angry-Narns as an example of how he deals if he does want someone dead. So, Londo, all the way.

Unless, of course, you mean: Londo and Baltar competing for "who DESPITE their intentions manages to cause most damage?" Then it's tough. Londo has the later part of the Earth-Minbari war because of his intervention in the secret negotiations, the Narn-Centauri war (okay, that one isn't despite intentions, he knew what he was doing), and the bombardment of Centauri Prime plus years of slavery of same to the Drakh. Baltar has the destruction of the twelve colonies plus the Cylon occupation of New Caprica. Hmmm...

[neuralclone.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I wouldn't dream of putting Baltar against Londo in a political competition! (Though I wouldn't mind seeing Londo pitted against Laura Roslin. Now that would be an interesting conetst.) No, I'd like to compare the amount of unwitting destruction Baltar and Londo have caused, and possibly their eventual redemption - though since we haven't seen the end of Gaius Baltar's story yet, we don't know how he's going to turn out.

(And yes, I'm inexplicably fond of him too. It must be that comic-to-tragic arc coming into play again, not to mention his psychological complexity and flashes of insight and his ability to always make me hope he'll do the right thing even as he always does the wrong thing. Londo and Baltar, they have a lot in common. And they both appear to have been the target of dark forces. Hmmm.... )

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

I don't know Delenn well enough - and I might be more than a little biased, since she was one of the B5 characters I actively disliked - so I can safely say that I would fully expect Roslin to win. :)

I second the question for Kai Winn, though, and what would happen if we throw Angela Petrelli into the race?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

As I said above, this isn't a sympathy vote. I like Laura better, too, but it's not what I asked.

Kai Winn: see reply to deborah_judge, alas. (Also, she wasn't an option at the original meme, which explicitly asked for no actual (current, former, might be) villains.)

Angela: now that's different. She doesn't have Winn's Achilles heel. Otoh, both Delenn and Laura Roslin have proven themselves as far more grand scale strategists. What I think would happen is that Angela would wait for them to finish each other off, hoping to come sweeping in once one of them isn't a problem anymore and the other is seriously weakened. Meanwhile, they'd have figured that out, and would have made one of their boytoys minions kill her for the greater good.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

As I said above, this isn't a sympathy vote. I like Laura better, too, but it's not what I asked.

I'm aware of that; the disclaimer was mostly to clarify that I neither know Delenn enough nor feel unbiased enough about her to make this a truly valid decision.

Angela vs. Roslin/Delenn: that seems like a possible turn of events, however, if she really has precognitive dreams, she may know about their boytoy killing strategy in advance and take on counter measures.

[ffutures.livejournal.com]

I voted Delenn but I honestly think that the most likely result is that Servalan manipulates both of them to take eachother out then moves into the power vacuum.

[kernezelda]

Roslin is the leader of a small batch of lost humans. Delenn leads a multi-species empire. She'd crush Roslin if it came to outright combat. If not, she likely would make a public acknowledgement of the grit/determination of her foe (and the desperate journey, etc. etc.), and grant the cultural misfits to Earth leadership to decide how to integrate them into the Alliance.

I am fondest of Servalan, nonetheless, and can easily envision a restored Federation under her command, if she can induce Avon to bring Orac to aid her. Note, I don't say this is a good thing. *g*

[resolute.livejournal.com]

Okay. This is COMPLICATED omg.

I think Delenn has more power, greater connections, a broader reach . . . But. But I said Roslin. Roslin is a *pragmatist*. She will flee to fight another day. Delenn is a zealot, and will refuse, at some point, to back down. Delenn will will the first fight, sure, but Roslin will get away and rebuilt and regroup and come back later.

So, in that sense, I answered Roslin. Though I think Delenn would win the first conflict, maybe the second and third . . .

[kathyh]

I voted for Delenn because I think she has the greater experience, the greater ruthlessness and the greater backing. Laura just hasn't been doing the power thing for long enough I don't believe. Of course if you put Servalan in the mix she'd win hands down. And nobody's mentioned another very powerful lady who I think would give them all a run for their money - Galadriel. If she took the Ring the rest of them would be toast.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, the One Ring is a bit of an unfair advantage - any of the ladies mentioned would become supreme ruler with it, as they'd all have the willpower to use it instead of being turned into Gollums instantly. I'll grant you that Galadriel as someone used to a ring of power would have the most expertise, though!

[hobsonphile.livejournal.com]

While I recognize the legitimacy of the arguments in favor of Delenn (groomed for leadership, complete religious confidence), I'm compelled to put in a vote for Madame Airlock. Her ruthlessness stems from the universal survival instinct. Really, there's nothing like pushing a woman against a wall to bring out the necessary desperate, no-holds-barred determination.

BUT - in the end, I think it would depend on the terms of battle and the reasons why these two iron ladies went dark side.

[lawrence520.livejournal.com]

Man, that's a tough call. I give Delenn the edge mostly because although both women are extremely talented at manipulation and political maneuvering, Delenn has more experience in openly wielding massive military power. Roslin's never shown that she can do so directly (probably because she's never had the opportunity, but still). I can see either of them manipulating the military leaders of their respective cultures to take out enemies (not hard, given that they both do so in canon), but can you see Roslin taking over command of the Galactica and running it through a battle? Sometimes there's something to be said for the direct approach, and here's where Delenn comes out ahead. Either of these women would stab you in the back if necessary (or, more likely, get someone else to do so), but Delenn would just run right over your ass with a battlecruiser if that was an option, too.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I'm severely handicapped by having no real idea who Delenn is (but we wants to find out now precious, yes we does). However since people are throwing alternative contenders into the ring how about Buffy Summers as of S8?

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm two issues behind on the comics, which is a German fan's fate these days, due to eons of waiting for American imports, I'm afraid.

So, you haven't watched Babylon 5? You must. Have some inducement here:

http://selenak.livejournal.com/58186.html

(In which I am silly and imagine how BTVS would be like if written by JMS, and Babylon 5 by Joss Whedon.)

[peebs1701.livejournal.com]

One-on-one Delenn would definitely win. It was stated several times over the course of B5 that Minbari are stronger than humans and in Season 1 we saw her sustain a lot of blood loss and still be conscious and alive, loss to the point that would kill a human according to Dr. Franklin. So Delenn would definitely win there. If we're talking armies vs. armies it would be harder to call, but I think I'd still go for Delenn.

[lilyoftheval5.livejournal.com]

Laura strikes me as a more ruthless one.

[rashina.livejournal.com]

A little late to the party, but...

I voted Laura Roslin. I believe Delenn's inherent respect for life would keep her from being ruthless enough as an evil overlord.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Not that this says anything about who'd win, but have you considered Delenn called for a genocidal war and actively participated in it until the very end? The Minbari didn't just want to conquer Earth (a la Centauri and Narn). It's explicitly stated both on the show and in In the Beginning, the tv movie, that the war aim was the complete annihilation of the human race.

Yes, Delenn was also the one to ultimately stop it by making that choice of Sinclair, but this does not make her any less culpable of the previous years, or less capable of killing. And this was "our" Delenn, i.e. the light side one.

(Incidentally, I think Laura's advantage would be the ability to retreat and flee, if necessary, to fight another day, not the ruthlessness which is about equal.)

[rashina.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me that she made the decision to pursue and destroy in anger and rage, and once she realized the ramifications tried to undo what she had done. I don't think she could be capable of ordering the cold-blooded killing of an entire race, which is exactly what Roslin attempted to do with the infected Cylons.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

That doesn't square with the timeline. Delenn made her first and only attempt to stop the war (the secret negotiations) 18 months after it started. This is easy to miss if one doesn't pay attention to Londo's narration, because scene-wise, we go directly from Delenn making her vote to Delenn in brooding, regretting mode, which makes it look as if one followed the other, but the voice over tells us how much time has passed between these two scenes. And then it's another two years between the failed negotiation and the Battle on the Line. Now Delenn was of course not the leader of the Minbari but ONE of the leaders, one of nine. But several other members of the Grey Council had originally voted against the pursuit; if she had been willing to make more than one attempt, she could have found allies among them, one assumes. In any case, given the sheer length of the Earth/Minbari war, it's really not viable to claim that Delenn - or the rest of the Minbari, for that matter - were in berserker rage for the entire time. How much more "in cold blood" than years of a war during which no human prisoners were made until the last battle, and which, again, as it explicit aim had the destruction of the human race can you get?

What's more, there have to be precedents. In the scene between Londo and the human general early on, he warns that even at the height of their power, when they were expanding everywhere, the Centauri took care never to attack the Minbari. Because if you attack the Minbari, you do not survive. As a people, not just as an individual. Given that the Minbari were the race most directly influenced and formed by the Vorlons, this is not surprising.