So, that 'shipping thing

[selenak]

Something that occurred to me when reading debates and entries and stories in lj world recently: there seem to be roughly two extreme attitudes (with a lot of people moving in between, of course). One is to not just have an OTP but to declare that OTP exclusively destined for each other, declaring stories pairing one or both partners of that OTP with someone else not to be of interest (or just plain wrong) for this particular fan.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have the fascination of pairing a favourite character with as many different other characters as the fan in question can find or is interested in. These aren't mutually exclusive attitudes; I've seen fans who hold characters X and Y dear as an exclusive OTP, while happily writing Z/whoever stories. But being in a metamood, I'm curious what makes a fan go from liking a particular pairing to abhorring all other combinations for one partner in this pairing. (What makes a fan pair a favourite character with everybody, but hopefully not their dog, is less mysterious: it usually works on the "wow, he/she is hot!" basis and is helped if the character in question has shown great chemistry with diverse people in canon. See also: Faith, Lilah, Spike in the Jossverse, Avon in B7, or Methos in HL. Though also Marcus Cole of B5, who has to be the only canon virgin ending up as a fanon slut.)

One possibility could be, boring as it sounds, canon. I mean, take Zoe and Wash from Firefly, during those episodes we have until the show got cancelled (grr, argh!) shown to be happily married. Given their overall characterisation, it would take some serious twists and turns to make a plausible story in which either cheats on the other, so I could understand Zoe/Wash 'shippers declaring they couldn't believe/ wouldn't want to read such a story. But the most striking examples of the exclusivity syndrome I've run across (recently - let's not get into the legendary 'shipping wars of yesteryear, featuring B/A versus B/S, or A/C versus B/A) weren't fans of canonical couples. No, I'm thinking of several Remus/Sirius 'shippers who declared the thought of Remus/Tonks to be abhorrent and vile to them.

(Footnote here: I can believe Remus/Sirius as a couple. I can believe Remus and Sirius as friends without a slice of erotic interest in another; since this is the more unusual take, it strikes me as more intriguing at the moment if it occurs in a story which also strongly features them as friends, but that's me. Where the Remus/Tonks idea came from, I don't know; maybe I missed something on OotP, or maybe it's just because Tonks - as opposed to Hermione or McGonnagal - is both legal and young and thus deemed suitable for Remus. In any case, if the author takes the trouble to explain how this relationship comes about, I can believe Remus/Tonks as well.)

Since JKR, as opposed to many of her readers, seems completely uninterested in Remus Lupin's love life, it's unlikely that either 'ship will ever be given authorial confirmation, either in the form of "by the way, Harry, Sirius and I were a couple" or, "by the way, Harry, Tonks and I are an item now". So it's strictly a fanfic idea the objection aims at. Not being really into any of the HP pairings, I'm probably not in an emotional position to understand, so I tried to think of any OTPs I feel exclusive about, or, conversely, whether I can see the characters I like paired up with everyone.

Let's see. Space stations first:
- Londo and G'Kar: nah. All "theirlove/hateissocanonical" jokes aside, it's equally canonical that they are quite polyamorous. Besides, ignore Londo's love for Adira and you remove crucial motivation for at least two major decisions. And Londo and Timov are fun together. As are G'Kar and Lyta. However, I can't see either of them with just anybody, either. In those long years before much Centauri fanfic was written, I searched and searched and found the beginning of a, get this, Marcus/Londo story. Leaving aside my problem with Marcus pairings in general, I also for the life of me couldn't see Londo being interested. As for G'Kar, one of Andraste's friends longed for G'Kar/Sheridan, which equally boggled the mind. (My mind, that is.) No way, thought I. So here I am somewhere between not exclusive and not open to everything.

- Garak/Bashir: hm. Not exclusive, because I've read both of them with other people and enjoyed those stories. I have a secret weakness for Bashir/Dax (either Jadzia or Ezri, though in the later's case mostly because canon gave us so little justification) and every now and then toy with the idea of taking on Garak/Ziyal. However, the big competition for this pairing in the fandom is O'Brien/Bashir, and that's where I come closest, I suppose, to the aforementioned fannish feelings of possessiveness and deliberate avoidance of another combination. I like to think it's because O'Brien just pings me as straight (not to mention loyal to his wife), but maybe I'm just feeling competitive.

- Quark: Yup, that would be my character whom I can see paired up with everyone. (Not that he does get that kind of fanfic, despite canonical justification for slut status.) However, I do have a clear preference for my unrequited love story of choice, i.e. Quark/Jadzia Dax.

Jossverse:

Ah. Despite all the nice text and subtext, only one of the relationships I was emotionally invested in most actually was sexual - Angel/Darla, with an emphasis on Darla. However, I never had trouble reading either of them with someone else. The other two relationships I cared about most were of the family kind - Buffy & Dawn, and Angel & Connor. So no 'shipping in the romantic sense.

(Which isn't to say I didn't enjoy watching a lot of the pairings the shows offered, or that I don't read fanfic about them. But they aren't OTPs.)

X-Men Movieverse:

Xavier and Magneto all the way if we're talking about the relationship which fascinates me most. But I do enjoy reading Magneto/Mystique a lot as well, Magneto/Pyro is fun, and I'd be perfectly willing to read any Xavier/Someone else pairings, but poor Charles apparently is restricted to fannish monogamy. Mostly. Andraste wrote a very creepy but plausible Xavier/Rogue story, as I recall.

Star Wars:

In the OT, I liked Han and Leia well enough, but what really interested me was the Vader and Luke relationship. So when I later found out that there was Han/Luke slash, I went "huh?" in incomprehension, but did not feel any fannish hackles raised. (BTW, is there any Han/Lando? Because I always thought that would be more interesting.) Luke/Wedge got a "who?" from me, because I had trouble remembering Wedge Antilles at all.

But the prequels are what turned me into a genuine Star Wars fan. Like the Jossverse, though, they did this without me going OTP. Which isn't to say I don't like Anakin and Padme together; I'm in the minority of fans who find their relationship believable and touching. However, I'm more fascinated by the relationships between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and Anakin and Palpatine (one of the many reasons why I'm looking forward to Episode III). And I don't mean in the slash sense. The major sexual pairing in prequel fanfic, however, Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan, is just not my thing; perhaps due to mentor-or-parent-figure/student objections, perhaps due to canon objections (I'm not of the Saint!Obi faction, but I don't think he's a hypocrite, and do think he sincerely believes in the Jedi code, which nixes love affairs). So SW leaves me without any strong romantic or sexual pairing feelings one way or the other.

In conclusion: I'm a boring middle of the road fan when it comes to 'shipping characters.

Comments

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

I'm the person on the other side from either - I don't really have an OTP...there are definitely characters that fascinate me more than others, and who I prefer to read about, in theory. Theory because it also is a lot more painful when I see them written in a way that doesn't mesh with my personal view.

But I'm also different than a lot of readers in that I tend to prefer to NOT read too heavily in one pairing. I find when I do, I become more and more sensitive to things that feel cliche or out of character for a pairing and I end up being frustrated more than entertained. For an example that will never exist, I could read one fic in which Angel is lovingly rubbing Snyder's bald head for comfort and be happy. But after two or three fics, it would probably begin to turn me off the fic. So I try to skip around a lot.

And hey! Snyder is fabulous! Hee! There should be more Snyder fic.

But I'll read almost any pairing and even beyond that, I have a real fondness for gen fic.

Interestingly, because of the sensitivity to pairings that I start to build up, I've found myself doing things lately like reading in fandoms I have no actual interest in the show. Because it's something new and different, where it's not going to grate on me. And also because it minimizes the irritation with OOCness...

For the most part, I'm kind of anti-OTP for myself. I like to joke around with the phrase and create an OTP of the week, or whatever, but in reality my real focus is - I like to approach each story from a canon basis, no matter the pairing or situation. I believe I know how the characters feel about each other during the actual show - the author needs to convince me that the relationship (unless it's a canon ship and even then it needs to be very in character) is workable in each separate fic.

The thing about OTPs and why I can't do them is it becomes very easy to have authors assume it as a fact that 'so and so are together' - and that rarely works for me.

There, did I babble on a lot?

SNYGEL 4EVAH!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Theory because it also is a lot more painful when I see them written in a way that doesn't mesh with my personal view.

I know what you mean. If I never see another 'fic again in which Giles has a Mr. Hyde-like alter ego named Ripper (how difficult is the concept of "nickname as a teenager", anyway?), it'll be too soon.

And hey! Snyder is fabulous! Hee! There should be more Snyder fic.

Mikelesq wrote some excellent Snyder-centric stories as I recall. I'm all for exploring him further.*g*

But I'll read almost any pairing and even beyond that, I have a real fondness for gen fic.

Me too. As marinarusalka once said, in nine out of ten cases, I'd take a well-written gen story over a well-written slash or het pairing.

I like to approach each story from a canon basis, no matter the pairing or situation. I believe I know how the characters feel about each other during the actual show - the author needs to convince me that the relationship (unless it's a canon ship and even then it needs to be very in character) is workable in each separate fic.

The thing about OTPs and why I can't do them is it becomes very easy to have authors assume it as a fact that 'so and so are together' - and that rarely works for me.

Quite. Which is, for example, why I never fell for ajhalluk's excellent "Lust over Pendle" the way many other fans did. It's witty, it's sparkling, it's original and meshes OCs with canon characters beautifully... but one of the central premises, the Draco/Neville pairing, was never sold to me because, in this particular story (or rather, novel - it is that long) she starts out with them already being a couple. And without being shown how on earth HP Draco got to be LoP Draco, and why Neville would be in a relationship with him, of all the people, I just couldn't suspend enough disbelief.

And yes, if a story doesn't bother to explain on its own and just assumes fanon (not canon) is universally accepted as true, working from there, it becomes touch and go with the reader.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

...could I tempt you to try Hall's pre-Pendle Time Shall Not Mend (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russell.baldwin/ebooks/tsnm/), a HP/Vorkosigan crossover, which follows the boys' interactions when they've just been paired up together in the War and are negotiating an uncertain friendship, or maybe just their PWPish finally-getting-together story Not a Whisper (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russell.baldwin/ebooks/naw/), which also predates Pendle?

...and if you like those, the latest, 'The Kindly Ones', draws on 'Not a Whisper' as much as it does 'Disipation and Despair' or 'Lust Over Pendle', in terms of knowing who Roddy is. Er.

[/ajhallfangirl]

(Evidently I was pretty damned convinced (after being startled) by the unexpected viability of a Draco-Neville friendship developing in the future, if Draco were to eschew The Dark Side of The Force, type of thing, 'cause I ended up writing that myself, but YMMV. Still, the backstory maybe helps a little?)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Is the crossover readable (not in the sense of being well-written, which of course it must be, in the sense of being comprehensible) when one has no idea about the other fandom?

In any case, in a purist mood I could say LoP should be able to stand on its own, as a self-contained work. In a way, it does, being really well written, and if I had never read a single JKR novel, I'd have loved it without reservation, but as it is, I love the HP novels first and the fanfic second, and if a story presents a characterisation or two I can't believe, then I do have a problem.

Mind you, my problem wasn't a Draco chucking the Dark Side after good old Dad tried to sacrifice him. That much made sense. My problem was that Draco, independent from Dark Side or Light Side status, seems to have bullying as a rather consistent character trait throughout four (at the time LoP was written, now of course five) novels. Also, his jokes aren't funny. (As opposed to, say, first season Cordelia who fulfills at that point a similar function in BTVS.) And before we blame JKR - Snape gets some genuine zingers now and then, so it's not like successful sarcasm is reserved for Gryffindors in HP. Meaning that I couldn't see why on earth Neville, who was among those bullied by Draco in school, would fall for him.

(For the record, I wouldn't be able to believe Neville falling for Snape, whom I like considerably more than Draco, either.)

Question: A.J. Hall is pretty tough on the Weasley twins. If someone with her style and talent would write a future fic which pairs up Fred or George with Neville, don't you think she would object on canary grounds? Would you read Neville/Weasely Twin?

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

"...if I had never read a single JKR novel, I'd have loved it without reservation, but as it is, I love the HP novels first and the fanfic second, and if a story presents a characterisation or two I can't believe, then I do have a problem."

Ah, that's probably part of where we diverge, actually. I liked the HP books well enough, but I didn't adore them and I had no particular interest in reading the fanfic (to the point of being bemused about its existence, which is embarrassing in hindsight, but I really was THAT disinclined, initially). I think it was seeing a review on someone's LJ page which linked to LoP and mentined it as Draco/Neville that made me, out of bemusement more than anything, go and have a look.

I absolutely loved the story, and upon re-reading the canon, I found thaat I agreed with Hall's take on canon Neville and Draco in the zendom interview (http://zendom.diaryland.com/020906_86.html). You're right that Draco isn't as funny in canon as he's written in fanon, including Hall's Draco - I think he's rather pitiful, actually, and certainly unpleasant.

Would AJ Hall object to Neville/Weasley Twin on Canary grounds? I couldn't say, but I'd imagine it would depend upon the way the writer pulled the pairing off. Would I read Neville/Weasley Twin? I wouldn't rule it out, I don't think, but I'd find it a hard sell. The twins are older than our main characters in canon, so I don't think they're going to grow *much* more, and I do find the prospect of Neville/Weasley Twin startling, but...

...hmm. I'd find it difficult, because they were older, and supposed to be 'on his side' in terms of the House Rivalry that JKR lays out, and yet they still kept picking on him 'all in good fun'. Whereas with Draco's actions (like stealing the remembrall), there's the Slytherin/Gryffindor antagonism colouring their interactions, and making it less of a personal attack and more of an inter-house thing. So - I couldn't buy an actual relationship where the issue of their past wasn't colouring things, or hadn't been addressed and resolved for reasons that made sense to me - which I guess is your feeling about LoP?

(Neville/Snape - that would be a hell of a hard sell too, although I can see it would appeal to some people because of the messy relationship it is in canon. It pushes my Harry/Snape squick buttons, but far more so, because poor Neville really does get bullied badly by Snape, and he's terrified of him, whereas Harry just dislikes him. [Mind you, I can believe that there's some good and intelligently written Harry/Snape out there, but mostly my Teacher/Pupil reflex is going to get in the way of me seeking them out. I'm not ready to read Teacher/Pupil that makes me cringe over the abuse of trust in order to find well thought out Adult!Harry/Snape])

Damn, I do talk a lot.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Hypothetical Neville/Weasley Twin pairing:
So - I couldn't buy an actual relationship where the issue of their past wasn't colouring things, or hadn't been addressed and resolved for reasons that made sense to me - which I guess is your feeling about LoP?

Yes, exactly. By the way, it would be the same if LoP were co-starring one of the Weasleys.

As Teacher/Pupil is one of my big squicks as well (hence, for example, no Buffy/Giles for me), I'm so with you on that aspect of Neville/Snape. But even if it were completely adult Neville, ten or twenty years into the future (canon Snape is only 35 or 36 by book 5, after all), I still couldn't buy it due to the bullying past.

Snape/Harry: don't get me going on stories which have Dumbledore twinkling merrily at Teacher/Pupil relationships. Mind you, I can buy subtext in stories still set at Hogwarts. But certainly not more than that.

BTW, I read that interview at the time, and it made me curious enough to seek out LoP. I do disagree with one of her arguments re: Neville and Harry, though. Harry not asking about Neville's parents through the first three years and not knowing until Dumbledore tells him in book 4 never struck me as a subconscious slight/snobbery/disinterest in Neville as a person, but as rather typical for teenagers. At that age, I certainly never asked what friends I had about their parents (unless they told me). Harry doesn't know anything about Hermione's parents, either, other than that they are dentists, and she's one of his best friends.

One fascinating thing about LoP is of course that in some way it anticipates Neville's development in OotP. (Though in other ways OotP chunks some of LoPs assumptions; since Neville and Harry do grow closer there, and Harry gets a great deal more messed up in reaction to previous events, the somewhat smug but happy Harry of LoP and his complete cluelessness re: Neville is a great deal less likely.)

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Very fair points, all.

On an only-slightly-related note, you might enjoy this little ficlet about Snape (http://www.sweetandsour.netfirms.com/censorious.htm) for a contrast with the twinkly overlooking of Teacher/Student affairs.

Although Care of Magical Creatures (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~brussell/comc.htm) is better, I think.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha on the first. Am in the process of studying the second.*g*

[dylant.livejournal.com]

I have a very large, very fierce student/teacher squick, but I'm still going to step in here with Julad's HP warfic Night-blooming Heartsease (http://yearningvoid.net/stories/julad/000080.html). You just have to read it. In typical paradox fashion, we all knew Snape/Neville wouldn't work, but here, just this once, it does. I've said it before in other places, but it bears repeating: it's mindblowingly wondrous in all the deft, understated ways that good writing always is.

Totallyreadit.

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

HP/Vorkosigan?!

Forgive my interjection, but dear lord is that---I---it's parody, yes?

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Er, nope. It's apparently a sort of follow on to E H Smith's 'Marks and Scars' trilogy, which I confess I haven't read, but a quick google discovered it here (http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=568&chapno=1).

Having not read any of the Bujold books at the time of reading Hall's story, I'm afraid my interest was purely for the HP characters' development and interactions, and I just put up with the fact that I didn't appreciate what was going on with the Bujold side of things.

See what you think of Time Shall Not Mend (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russell.baldwin/ebooks/tsnm/) - sounds like you're better equipped than I to say whether it works.

[kakodaimon.livejournal.com]

Well, I'll eat my head. From the beginning, at least, the characters seem to be acting like themselves. ...Well. I had no idea Vorkosigan fanfiction even existed, let alone such bizarre crossovers.