January Meme: Hooked on Translations

[selenak]

cahn asked me: What Classics works (to be read in English translation) would you recommend to hook someone who doesn't know anything about it? (Aside from the Illiad/Odyssey/Aeneid -- but would also be open to interesting translations of those!) (And especially for someone who preferred the Aeneid to the Illiad and Odyssey?)

With the caveat that different things work for different people, and also my knowledge of good English translation is limited because I read most of those works in German (and/or had to translate them in school, like Cicero's speeches against Catilina and Sallust's work about the conspiracy), here are some recs I would go with. Note that they aren't literal translations but poetic ones, much like the Faust translation by Howart Brenton I recced to cahn where he had someone do the literal prose translation for him first so he could be sure about the literal meaning and then put it into verse. They're also by terrific poets, which means when you read these works in English, you get something of the visceral excitement and beauty of the originals, not a sense of dutiful bland dictionary (or worse, bowlderized) rendition.

1.) Ted Hughes: Tales from Ovid (i.e. a selection from Ovid's Metamorphoses). Praise, quotes and explanations why I think that's an awesome book to read here.

2.) Ted Hughes: Alkestis by Euripides. The last thing he ever published, shortly before his death, with a theme of personal relevance. Hughes and Euripides were as good a match as Hughes & Ovid. More praise and quotes here.

3.) Roz Kaveney: Catullus. Lots of well deserved praise and buying link here.

Now as I said elsewhere, I've been hearing good things about Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey, so it's definitely on my to read list, but I haven't gotten the chance to yet. And with Cicero's letters and speeches, Suetonius, Plutarch, Herodotus etc. I don't know any English translations, since, see above, I read them in German (or in Cicero's case translated some of the speeches in school and read the rest in German).

The other days

Comments

[mildred_of_midgard]

I'm glad she asked you rather than me this question, because it is not one I can help with, not even a little bit. :)

like Cicero's speeches against Catilina and Sallust's work about the conspiracy

How sensible! We had to read Sallust's Bellum Catilinae and Cicero's Pro Caelio in one of my courses, and in the Cicero-only course, the De Senectute and excerpts from the Verrine orations. I.e. all totally unrelated. I remember protesting to my professor that obviously we should have been reading Cicero against Catilina! But like I said, there was a distinct desire to not teach us history in a useful way: every work was a piece of literature that needed to be encountered without any context.

I hope to remedy this someday. :)

[selenak]

*stares* But not combining Sallust & at least one of the Cicero speeches makes no sense! Now granted, when we did Caesar and De Bello Gallico ("Gallia est divisa in partes tres"), we didn't also do Cicero's letters to his brother or something like that, but our teacher did establish context for how Caesar had gotten command in Gaul in the first place, pointed out that this was an important stepping stone to the Roman Civil War later, and also drew the Asterix connection. :)

[mildred_of_midgard]

*stares* But not combining Sallust & at least one of the Cicero speeches makes no sense!

That's what I said at the time! Why do you think I spent half my reply to your last Classics post ranting about my love-hate relationship with my Classics education? Love (most of) the material, hate the way it was taught.

Very emblematic of the problem was this exchange I had in college, with my medieval philosophy prof.

Me: I'm doing an independent study in the Classics department next semester, and I'd like to read some medieval philosophy in Latin. I was hoping you could recommend an interesting text.

Prof: *recommends some things*

Prof: But really what you should do is look at some works in English first. Get a sense of what's out there and what might be of interest to you, and pick something you liked.

Me: Ah, no, see, I can't do that. If I'm familiar with the text at all, then it's cheating. I have to go in completely blind, or it doesn't count as reading Latin.

Historical facts were doled out in dribs and drabs, orally, by the professor, *after* we had struggled through the Latin passage the night before and come to class in complete confusion. Which is why my knowledge of 100 BCE - 100 CE is so spotty.

[felis]

I'm not a hundred percent sure if my school Latin was taught this way or if I simply wasn't interested enough to retain anything, but I strongly suspect the former, given that my working knowledge of Roman history from that time is basically zero, as is my memory of anything we translated, including Cicero and Ovid. It's rather annoying in retrospect.

[mildred_of_midgard]

I remember quite a lot of what I was taught, but my memory is limited to what I was taught. Case in point: reading the Pro Caelio one sentence at a time, taking 8 weeks to do it, and never being allowed to look at the text in English, means that by the end of the 8 weeks, I no longer remembered what the speech said at the beginning. I never had a holistic picture of the case: what was at stake, what they were arguing about, who was involved, etc.

I wrote a post a while back comparing this experience to playing a piece on the piano, one note at a time, over the course of 8 weeks, never hearing it, never playing it again, never building up proficiency in it, and then saying that you've "played that piece." It is technically true that I "read the Pro Caelio." But did I understand it as a work? No. Did I learn the Latin language in a way that enabled me to read other speeches? No.

This is why I phrase it as, "We were required to do everything the hardest possible way, otherwise we might accidentally learn something."

See also: what I am not doing in salon!

[selenak]

Given that the Pro Caelio is essentially Cicero getting a young guy who was at least as shady as any of Catilina's crowd off the hook for murder and attempted murder by slut shaming his mistresss on a spectacular scale, making anyone translate it one sentence a time feels like Clodia Pulcher's posthumus revenge on Cicero for the relentless slut shaming in question...

[mildred_of_midgard]

And this is why Classics salon is going to be way more educational!

[cahn]

like Cicero's speeches against Catilina and Sallust's work about the conspiracy

So, like, this is all... Latin... to me :P I have no idea what you are talking about and I would like to! Doesn't have to be today or even this year. But just saying :PP (And I don't have to read the speeches yet! Though I think I would like to, once i have the context to put them in.)

But like I said, there was a distinct desire to not teach us history in a useful way: every work was a piece of literature that needed to be encountered without any context.

Haha, like you say below, this is sort of the antithesis of salon! First gossipy sensationalism overview, THEN get into Lehndorff's diaries :D

[mildred_of_midgard]

I have no idea what you are talking about and I would like to!

It will be so very, very much fun. :D :D :D

Doesn't have to be today or even this year.

At least as far as I'm involved (aka when Selena will tell you things, I don't know), it will be after I learn to read German and possibly French, although I'm getting pessimistic about having the patience to do French first. :P I'm getting close with German, though: it's super exciting to me that felis found a book and the same week I had read and reported on one (short) chapter!

[cahn]

:) Well, we've started the Old Testament at church and it looks like the readings are about two chapters a week (eta: I'm reading them in French, which I'd mentioned to mildred at some point but I forget whether it was in salon or not), which is not of course up to your level but at least I'll be getting consistent small doses! (NT readings will be longer, but that's not until next year.)

[mildred_of_midgard]

It was in my DW, not in salon.

Yay for French practice! Maybe that will help motivate me when the time comes. :)

which is not of course up to your level

Well, right now my level of practice is 0 French, so you're ahead of me. :P

[selenak]

Excellent comparison. If you don't know who Fritz and who Heinrich were, and what their general relationship was, then Lehndorff's diary entry re: Marwitz isn't half as fun.

Without such detail as we will give you in a classics salon:

Cicero: as in the Roman politician, orator, writer. The high point of his political career was his consulate, and he didn't let anyone forget it. Self made man/Homo Novus (meaning he wasn't born into one of the old Roman noble families), though allying with the Optimates (which very loosely translates into the Roman Senate's conservative party.)

Catilina: was born into one of the old Roman families, ended up allying himself with the Populares (very loosely translates into the more progressive party in the Senate). Just how dastardly his career in between was is somewhat debated these days, since history is written by the victor, and if he really was the worst of the worst from the get go as Cicero later claimed, it's a bit surprising Cicero was entirely willing to represent him as a lawyer in one of the many scandals that happened in Catilina's earlier life, in this case, him being accused of getting it on with a Vestal. (This was lethally serious stuff; if found guilty, both Catilina and the Vestal would have been executed. Additional factor: the Vestal in question was Cicero's sister-in-law.) Cicero's legal representation in that case wasn't necessary, but some years later, he and Catilina ran for the consul office against each other. This was Catilina's second and final attempt. He lost. He also was heavily in debt.

=> The Catilinian Conspiracy. Was it an attempted coup d'état by a few dissaffected Roman nobles like Catilina plus some of their dupes among the population which Cicero foiled? Was it an attempted revolution against an unjust system (reading that started in some parts of the 20th century)? Either way, it is, as I said, Cicero's main (though not only) claim to political fame. The first of four speeches against Catilina, which he held in Catilina's presence, is the one you'll end up hearing quoted and parodied the most, opening with the famous "Quo usque tandem, Catilina, abutere patientia nostra?" ("How much longer, Catilina, will you go on abusing our patience?"

Sallust: Roman history writer. Client of Caesar (which is important, because Cato accused Caesar of being in league with Catilina when everyone, post victory, was debating the fate of the conspirators, and Caesar argued against the death penalty for those who hadn't already died with Catilina in battle; the Cato vs Caesar speeches make for a particularly lively section in Sallust's history). Allied to the Populares. His "The Conspiracy of Catiline" does present Catilina as a villain and Cicero as a hero, but it also provides some positive material about Catilina (ability to ditch his decadent life style for stoic soldierism when he wanted to, being personally brave in combat, heroic last speech before dying with his men in battle) along with all the negatives (ruthless young opportunist under Sulla the dictator, sexual scandals, wanted to topple the state during Cicero's consulate).

The reason why we read Cicero's first speech against Catilina in conjunction with Sallust's "The Conspiracy of Catilina" in my Latin class is therefore obvious.

Short term consequence for Cicero: getting voted the honorary title "Pater Patriae", praised of saving the Republic from Catilina.

Middle term consequence for Cicero: the fact that he had sucessfully used the emergency power given to him during the conspiracy to condemn the surviving conspirators to death without a trial (the thing Cato had argued for, and Caesar against) was to banish him from Rome for two years (since it was illegal to kill Roman citizens without a trial, and a later Senate, by now nerveously eying the first Triumvirate - Caesar/Pompey/Crassus - said Cicero's emergency powers didn't cover that). It also factored in an enraged crowd buring Cicero's house down in the aftermath of Clodius' death. (Clodius = also a shady and ruthless Populares politician. Murdered. Cicero defended his killer.)

Long term consequence for Cicero: by and large, he's still the hero of the story, but some of his actions are getting side-eyed now.

[mildred_of_midgard]

I wish to enroll at the University of Selena for my next Classics degree. :) Thank you for this, it was enlightening to me as well.

The reason why we read Cicero's first speech against Catilina in conjunction with Sallust's "The Conspiracy of Catilina" in my Latin class is therefore obvious.

As is the reason why I was confused that we were not doing exactly this!

[cahn]

This is awesome, I can see why you would read them together and why mildred is so angry that she didn't read them together, and I will have you know I am both realizing the depth of my ignorance and fighting really hard to stop from asking you a zillion questions, I will save them for classics salon. This is great :D