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Jan. 16th, 2008 06:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakRandomly, while watching a season 3 House episode: so, does House get an incest case at least once per season? If so, are we sure David Shore isn’t the alias of a fanfic writer? (Come to think of it, the only time House has been wrong about suspecting incest was the case with the teenager having nightmares. This strengthens my suspicions about Shore.)
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
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no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 06:52 pm (UTC)I wish I could say people aren't that stupid, but I know some of them are, and I understand your reaction to this equation. Luckily I don't have had any relevant rl experience, but I still feel put out whenever I encounter it, too. Sadly, discussion is basically futile precisely because of what you describe - it always ends with: "But if you say you're squicked by my kink, you're a homophobe/racist/impediment to freedom of speech!"
Mind you, it's of course possible to avoid reading something that squicks you because the pairings are labelled. (For example, when I see something credited with Noah/Claire, I definitely won't read it because the very idea grosses me out. So does Sylar/Claire, for that matter, but that's another squick.) But I realize some fandoms make it harder to avoid pairings that rub you the wrong way than others - you can spend years in Alias fandom without coming across incest pairings (I know I did; I still would assume there aren't any if Yahtzee hadn't told me otherwise), whereas this really is impossible with Heroes. (Or SPN, I guess, but then the only Supernatural fic I've read were crossovers with other fandoms.)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 07:20 pm (UTC)Yes, absolutely. I think people are doing really good with that, to the point of erring on the safe side (I mean, labelling Peter/Claire as "AU, canon incest" is kind of factually wrong, even though I know what the author wants to convey.). It's more the reaction in discussions - I remember a conversation between
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 07:33 pm (UTC)Oh, remember back when that "unpopular opinion" meme was making the rounds and a lot of people seemed to define that as "opinions a lot of fandom has anyway"? (For example "I don't like the lead, I like the sidekicks and the morally ambiguous characters" - no, gasp, REALLY?) I made an effort to think about some opinions that I knew were genuinenly unpopular, such as "I like Anakin Skywalker, and I don't mean as Darth Vader, I mean as Anakin, starting with the kid" - and this was before Return of the Sith, when he was the most hated character since Wesley Crusher in sci fi fandom - and this felt ever so liberating. Go for it, don't disclaim, I say.
And, as you say, it hugely depends on the fandom: I haven't seen that much Adama/Apollo fic yet.
I haven't seen any, but I saw some summaries for Lee/Zak, I think. Only two or three, though.
At the same time, I definitely feel sorry for any SPN non-incest or - shock! - gen fans. Of course, the latter might be the fan equivalent to Nessie.
I know at least two:
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 08:00 pm (UTC)Oh yeah, I do. It made my preferences seem horribly mundane since quite a lot of people apparently shared them. (Although I do insist that Nathan was unpopular in a lot of circles during the first season.) Luckily, my fondness for Audrey, my sympathy for Meredith, my vague understanding for Janice, and my indifference towards Simone saved my indie cred.
Go for it, don't disclaim, I say.
I can start by saying that I never thought Noah was as great as the rest of fandom and really started disliking him this year. Not to the point of wishing they had left him dead, but seriously, the man needs some new routines like, yesterday. Separating him from the family may have been the best idea they had in ages.
I know at least two: [info]vaznetti and [info]hossgal, so they do exist...
Next thing you'll tell me there are people who ship Vaughn/Lauren.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 08:16 pm (UTC)He was, and if you want proof that despite changes, the attitude can still be encountered, check out the most recent review I got for "Five Lies...", only about a week ago:
http://www.fanfiction.net/r/3570333/
Noah B: see, I liked what they did with him this year - a deliberate greying (and especially that a seemingly straightforward black and white concept, "Noah recruits Mohinder to bring down the Company" instead went "Noah goes off the rails and Mohinder decides the Company is the lesser of two evils", not to mention that instead of ending with Noah victorious, it ends (for now) with Noah re-entering the Company - but didn't like how fandom insisted on seeing him as completely white regardless. And agreed on the separation from the family idea. I'm sometimes fond and sometimes not so much of the webcomics, but I can tell you that the one where they did the split panel image of Noah and Bob having a single face (the phone conversation where Noah calls Bob after having killed the dangerous rogue) and Bob tells Noah that he's still a good Company Man because that's what he is made me feel smug, considering I gave them a similar conversation in "Players".
Next thing you'll tell me there are people who ship Vaughn/Lauren.
*g* I think there there might have been. There definitely were Lauren sympathizers who (rightly) thought she was screwed over, characterisation wise, though they were in a minority.
Sidenote: sadly enough, I thought the best and most dimensional Lauren was written post - "Full Disclosure" was in season 4, when she was a corpse, both in terms of her relationship with Vaughn and her relationship with Sark.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 08:41 pm (UTC)She's probably not very observant (or hates politicians rather a lot). While the first five episodes of Season 2 don't necessarily have to make you love Nathan, they certainly humanize him to a massive degree.
Noah: I have greatest difficulties with his views on people and what you're allowed to do to them and his undeniable love for his family isn't balanced out by that for me - especially since he's so over-controlling with them. The same issues I have with Angela, btw - purely an anti-kink, nothing to do with the actors who are both fabulous, but certainly influenced in very different ways by both fandom worship for Noah and fandom dislike for Angela, as well as the fact that at this moment, she's one of the few female characters I still find watchable. Thus I end up not liking Angela, but enjoying her appearances a lot more than Noah's, paradoxically enough.
I certainly agree that the show keeps him more ambiguous than fandom, though.
Sidenote: sadly enough, I thought the best and most dimensional Lauren was written post - "Full Disclosure" was in season 4, when she was a corpse, both in terms of her relationship with Vaughn and her relationship with Sark.
Sigh. She certainly was a prime example of How Not To Write a Character. (Still kudos to Melissa George both for returning for a corpse cameo and carrying the general hostilities so very well, though.)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 09:54 pm (UTC)I think if somone is resolved to hate a character, there is probably not much a show can do, but yes, if she missed the human aspects during those episodes (and actually the preceeding season, too)...
One of these days I'm going to collect the oddest responses I got for stories. One of my favourites in terms of bizarreness is from a passionate Lindsey fan who used to review each and every one of my AtS stories (Lindsey is actually just in one of them, and I wrote quite a lot) with a remark about Mr. McDonald or a demand for his presence, crowning this with a review of a vignette about Holtz and his actions in "Benediction" (i.e the episode where he makes Justine kill him) which said that Angel and Darla totally deserved Holtz' revenge because, wait for it, they were so mean to Lindsey. Not because of what they did to Holtz, and never mind that Holtz' revenge damaged Connor to a terrible degree: being mean to Lindsey was really the worst crime ever.
(In terms of Heroes reviews, my favourite bizarre one is the one for "The Most Lies" which says that Peter/Simone was the ideal romance and how perfect they were for each other. Leaving aside that take on the relationship as presented on the show, I'm still at a loss to understand how one could get this impression from my story, with its not so joking subtitle "men suck".)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 10:29 pm (UTC)Ha! Unbelievable! (But seriously, Simone and Peter, the ideal romance? Bwuh?)
I know. I mean, I really like Peter, but I wouldn't wish him as a boyfriend on anyone, and I wasn't exactly subtle about this in that particular story. I suppose I should be glad not everyone fandom dislikes Simone, and that people reviewed the story at all (Simone character exploration not being a popular subject). But behold:
http://www.fanfiction.net/r/3563973/
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 10:14 pm (UTC)I'd give her leeway on Season One, since quite a lot of people missed that (or thought it wasn't enough to excuse his actions), but aside from the drinking, the despair, the Peter shrine, wearing Peter's clothes, developing pretty much an instant relationship with Matt, the discussion with his Mirror Half that pretty much spelled out what he feared about both himself and what he had almost done, plus his repeated expression of these feelings towards Angela, and not to mention his heartbreaking scene with the kids, you would think that three and a half months slowly dying from burn injuries would invoke at least some pity.
Not because of what they did to Holtz, and never mind that Holtz' revenge damaged Connor to a terrible degree: being mean to Lindsey was really the worst crime ever.
I bet she really hates Lorne, too, for what he did in the show finale.
I'm still at a loss to understand how one could get this impression from my story, with its not so joking subtitle "men suck".
Ha! Unbelievable! (But seriously, Simone and Peter, the ideal romance? Bwuh?)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 10:31 pm (UTC)Ha! Unbelievable! (But seriously, Simone and Peter, the ideal romance? Bwuh?)
I know. I mean, I really like Peter, but I wouldn't wish him as a boyfriend on anyone, and I wasn't exactly subtle about this in that particular story. I suppose I should be glad not everyone fandom dislikes Simone, and that people reviewed the story at all (Simone character exploration not being a popular subject). But behold:
http://www.fanfiction.net/r/3563973/
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 11:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 12:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 12:28 pm (UTC)Pretty much. It's sort of an odd formulation where a lot of people say they like him for his flaws (the "flaw" being moral grayness and shooting of old defenseless men) and completely overlook his actual character flaws and the mistakes he made leading up to his own shooting.
I mean, I love crazy characters, and Noah shooting Ivan was a great character moment for him. But the far superior character moment in that episode was Noah haphazardly throwing over the room they were in. Because that was the one that showed just how off the rails and screwed up he was there, and because it was a huge mistake.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:20 am (UTC)*waves* Don't feel sorry - Supernatural has a lot of terrific gen fic. The real shortages are in non-incest slash and in het, though both have been getting better since second season.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 06:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 02:54 pm (UTC)And really, this whole comment is just an excuse to use this icon. :-)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 05:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 06:35 pm (UTC)Mind you, I found the scene where he finds her in full self-loathing punishment and forgives her and takes her home very touching, but otherwise that whole storyline just had me shaking my head.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 06:48 pm (UTC)At that point, I stopped caring that she would Never Do That, and that he had never shown any sign to be in lust with her before, because that was just Octavian at his Magnificent Bastard finest.