(no subject)

[selenak]

Randomly, while watching a season 3 House episode: so, does House get an incest case at least once per season? If so, are we sure David Shore isn’t the alias of a fanfic writer? (Come to think of it, the only time House has been wrong about suspecting incest was the case with the teenager having nightmares. This strengthens my suspicions about Shore.)

Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)



1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.

2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.

3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)

4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?

5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.

Comments

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Hm, fascinating idea. I wonder if I should do one of these post myself, but I fear it could go very much into tl,dr territory.
(and speaking of which, this post turned into more of a manifesto than I originally planned, so if you think it's too OT or TMI, feel free to delete, okay?)

2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.

That's a very valid point, but the impression I got - not from all writers who do incest stories, but from a very healthy portion - is exactly that; it's fascinating because it's forbidden, and that makes it kind of hot - and I think that always made it kind of hot, because incest in fiction is hardly a new phenomenon. I can't even say that I necessarily have a problem with that, but what gets me is the idea that incest is exactly like slash (starting at such simple things as newsletters sorting Matt/Mohinder with Nathan/Peter), and that, consequently, any negative reaction to incest is basically the same as homophobia. I find the relation of these two issues extremely problematic, since I would usually suspect objections against incest to go a little deeper then either discomfort with same sex relations or worries about canon-accountability. Granted, I am judging from my own personal history here - I have experience with incest, and yeah, it kinda makes me react somewhat sensitively to certain topics or specifically pairings. Now I'm also in my thirties and have a bit of therapy under my belt, so I know what I can deal with and what I can't, and I can also distinguish between people's kinks and fantasies vs their thoughts about real life incidents, but I know that a lot of the stuff that's out there would have hit me badly even at twenty, and the unwillingness in greater fandom to acknowledge the possibility that someone could feel uncomfortable with incest for valid reasons and respect that without feeling the need to blindly defend themselves or to stop writing what they want to write quite frankly distresses me - which is why I usually avoid talking about the topic in the first place.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I can't even say that I necessarily have a problem with that, but what gets me is the idea that incest is exactly like slash (starting at such simple things as newsletters sorting Matt/Mohinder with Nathan/Peter), and that, consequently, any negative reaction to incest is basically the same as homophobia.

I wish I could say people aren't that stupid, but I know some of them are, and I understand your reaction to this equation. Luckily I don't have had any relevant rl experience, but I still feel put out whenever I encounter it, too. Sadly, discussion is basically futile precisely because of what you describe - it always ends with: "But if you say you're squicked by my kink, you're a homophobe/racist/impediment to freedom of speech!"

Mind you, it's of course possible to avoid reading something that squicks you because the pairings are labelled. (For example, when I see something credited with Noah/Claire, I definitely won't read it because the very idea grosses me out. So does Sylar/Claire, for that matter, but that's another squick.) But I realize some fandoms make it harder to avoid pairings that rub you the wrong way than others - you can spend years in Alias fandom without coming across incest pairings (I know I did; I still would assume there aren't any if Yahtzee hadn't told me otherwise), whereas this really is impossible with Heroes. (Or SPN, I guess, but then the only Supernatural fic I've read were crossovers with other fandoms.)

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Mind you, it's of course possible to avoid reading something that squicks you because the pairings are labelled. (For example, when I see something credited with Noah/Claire, I definitely won't read it because the very idea grosses me out. So does Sylar/Claire, for that matter, but that's another squick.)

Yes, absolutely. I think people are doing really good with that, to the point of erring on the safe side (I mean, labelling Peter/Claire as "AU, canon incest" is kind of factually wrong, even though I know what the author wants to convey.). It's more the reaction in discussions - I remember a conversation between kattahj and me about feeling squicked out by Noah/Claire, and we both felt compelled to make a disclaimer about people having a right to their kinks (hugely paraphrasing here). I felt weird about that, because I have a huge problem with that specific pairing, but at the same time I had (and have) the impression that voicing that opinion is frowned upon in fandom, because it is seen as oppressive, or taking away people's fun. There's a bit of peer pressure at work here, probably. (And, as you say, it hugely depends on the fandom: I haven't seen that much Adama/Apollo fic yet. At the same time, I definitely feel sorry for any SPN non-incest or - shock! - gen fans. Of course, the latter might be the fan equivalent to Nessie.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

There's a bit of peer pressure at work here, probably.

Oh, remember back when that "unpopular opinion" meme was making the rounds and a lot of people seemed to define that as "opinions a lot of fandom has anyway"? (For example "I don't like the lead, I like the sidekicks and the morally ambiguous characters" - no, gasp, REALLY?) I made an effort to think about some opinions that I knew were genuinenly unpopular, such as "I like Anakin Skywalker, and I don't mean as Darth Vader, I mean as Anakin, starting with the kid" - and this was before Return of the Sith, when he was the most hated character since Wesley Crusher in sci fi fandom - and this felt ever so liberating. Go for it, don't disclaim, I say.

And, as you say, it hugely depends on the fandom: I haven't seen that much Adama/Apollo fic yet.

I haven't seen any, but I saw some summaries for Lee/Zak, I think. Only two or three, though.

At the same time, I definitely feel sorry for any SPN non-incest or - shock! - gen fans. Of course, the latter might be the fan equivalent to Nessie.

I know at least two: vaznetti and hossgal, so they do exist...

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

Oh, remember back when that "unpopular opinion" meme was making the rounds and a lot of people seemed to define that as "opinions a lot of fandom has anyway"?

Oh yeah, I do. It made my preferences seem horribly mundane since quite a lot of people apparently shared them. (Although I do insist that Nathan was unpopular in a lot of circles during the first season.) Luckily, my fondness for Audrey, my sympathy for Meredith, my vague understanding for Janice, and my indifference towards Simone saved my indie cred.

Go for it, don't disclaim, I say.

I can start by saying that I never thought Noah was as great as the rest of fandom and really started disliking him this year. Not to the point of wishing they had left him dead, but seriously, the man needs some new routines like, yesterday. Separating him from the family may have been the best idea they had in ages.

I know at least two: [info]vaznetti and [info]hossgal, so they do exist...

Next thing you'll tell me there are people who ship Vaughn/Lauren.

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

At the same time, I definitely feel sorry for any SPN non-incest or - shock! - gen fans.

*waves* Don't feel sorry - Supernatural has a lot of terrific gen fic. The real shortages are in non-incest slash and in het, though both have been getting better since second season.

P.S.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

On a lighter note: I had read futuresoon's House crossover before having watched any episodes of the show and so thought House's immediate suspicions were because this was a Heroes crossover, but now that I'm two seasons and seven episodes into the show, I realize this is pure canon. Like I said, he has at least one case per season, and it seems to be his default assumption, which is why I wonder how much fanfic Shore has read.

Re: P.S.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

*g* I guess by now they almost all do, showrunners and writers seem to be getting really media savvy these days. (Given that Chuck Kim of Heroes admitted to reading both the main NBC and the 9thWonders board, I'm pretty sure the Heroes PTB are well aware of the, er, composed reaction to this season's cliffhanger. Which they obviously deserve.)

In addition to that, incest has become pretty topical on American TV these days; cadesama and I had a conversation about that a while back, and we came to the conclusion that it is really pretty much everywhere. (Case in point is Arrested Development, which really took the joke and ran with it in almost every combination possible, but think of Veronica Mars, too.)

Re: P.S.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Given that Chuck Kim of Heroes admitted to reading both the main NBC and the 9thWonders board, I'm pretty sure the Heroes PTB are well aware of the, er, composed reaction to this season's cliffhanger

Even if they wouldn't read the message boards, there is poor Greg Beeman's blog. I say "poor" because I stopped reading the comments around "Four Months Ago" which was an episode I loved and where there was non-stop bitching in the replies to his entries. (I.e. it's not just the season finale reactions...) But yeah, undoubtedly they are aware.

Veronica Mars: well, when you have your heroine in the pilot discovering she may have slept with her half brother...

(BTW, I always was disappointed they did let Veronica check the paternity test at the end, because I loved the idea that she and Keith were father and daughter, no matter what the biology said, but I do understand she might have wanted to know because of the Duncan factor.)

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I was talking to someone on my friendslist a while back, who said that she'd read a selection of Sam/Dean incest fics out of curiosity to see why people shipped them, and been surprised by how despairing and grim most of the stories were. She'd got the impression that they were all happy and fluffy and "sibling sex is hot", and ended up even more puzzled than she had been in a "why do so many people want to read such extreme angst all the time?" way.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, not having read a single SPN fanfic (of either the incest or the non-incest kind - I did read two or so crossovers with other fandoms, but there was no sex of either kind involved), I couldn't comment on SPN fannish motivation, but:

why do so many people want to read such extreme angst all the time?

Has she ever read BTVS and AtS fanfic? Okay, granted, that has the entire spectrum, and there is fluff as well, but you know what I mean.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Oh, she was a big BtVS and Ats fan, her point was that for Spuffy, say, there were loads of doomy liebestod fics but also loads of fluff while the Wincest stuff seemed to be dominated by gloom to an extent unprecedented in her experience.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

"why do so many people want to read such extreme angst all the time?"

That one seems pretty popular across all fandoms and shipping types, though. Of course, with SPN it is odd since the show itself isn't exactly grim (or wasn't in it's first season, which is admittedly the one I'm mostly familiar with), and despite the unusual circumstances the boys grew up in, they never seemed dysfunctional, isolated or even close enough to believably have an incestuous relationship. Has she found many where the relationship was the source of angst?

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

The second season gets extremely dark right from the first ep, and the sibling relationship becomes a massive source of angst.

[rivrea.livejournal.com]

A friend of mine (both LJ and RL) is into Heroes incest (the good ship Nathan/Peter), and I would very much like to have this discussion with her one day. Perhaps I could refer her to this post of yours when the occasion arises.

On the one hand, I don't want to blame her (or any other people, for that matter) for a fic-reading kink when she's perfectly capable of distinguishing between fanfiction and reality; on the other hand, I feel a little uncomfortable about turning an affectionate, even sort of touchy-feely relationship between brothers into something sexual. The emotions between siblings can, IMO, be intense and even screwed up while being completely non-sexual in nature.

Moreover, the treatment of incest pairings like any other slash pairing creeps me out somehow. Not only does it belittle the disturbing emotional impact of incest, but the "incest is the new slash!" slogan (which my friend has never used, though -- thank goodness), even if meant as some sort of flippant joke, seems to point at some rather strange views on non-incestuous same-sex relationships.

Still, I have read a few incest fics myself (Boromir/Faramir and Angel/Connor, to be precise), despite all my misgivings. I found these stories -- who were all written by authors whose other stuff I'd read before I clicked on these -- really well-written, but I simultaneously was squicking myself out in the process of reading them. So I'm not sure what to think...

And if you are talking about the book about Byron I think you might be talking about, I guess I have to thank you and your take on sibling incest for sparking some interest in Byron in me during my teenage years. That was definitely a beneficial result of sibcest RPF. :)

(Edited because I can't type.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

on the other hand, I feel a little uncomfortable about turning an affectionate, even sort of touchy-feely relationship between brothers into something sexual. The emotions between siblings can, IMO, be intense and even screwed up while being completely non-sexual in nature.

Oh, absolutely. One of my favourite non'cesty (as in: don't see it, don't think it was, don't think author who first attracted my attention to relationship thought it was, either) historical sibling relationships is the one between medieval brothers Llewelyn ap Gryffyd and his brother Davydd. Heavily featured in novels of Sharon Penman and Ellis Peters (writing as Edith Pargeter), and if one looks at that pattern of betrayals, reconciliations against all the odds etc, which the novelist didn't invent but the historians tell us about, it must have been an incredibly intense.

Re: the translation of physical affection between men into sexual attraction, that easily happens in any visual medium among fans these days, and yes, in a way it's a pity. Otoh, personally I made it through all three LotR movies (I read the books eons ago, way before discovering slash) without the physical male affection which was very present there, too, letting me see subtext. (Except between Aragorn and Boromir, but even then I couldn't see Aragorn cheating on Arwen, so in my head, it remained unspoken attraction.) So I hope I'm still able to see two men being affectionate towards each other without automatically concluding there's sex in the offering (incesteous or not). Re: Nathan and Peter in Heroes, like I said, I don't write them as lovers, but I have no problem with reading fanfic that presents them as same, if it's well written and the transition made plausible.

Byron: wenn Du Deutsch liest...

[rivrea.livejournal.com]

I had never heard of the Edith Pargeter novels before, but they sound fascinating, and this example illustrates perfectly what I was trying to get across.

Re: the translation of physical affection between men into sexual attraction, that easily happens in any visual medium among fans these days, and yes, in a way it's a pity.

Yes, indeed. There are so many nuances of romantic friendship between being best buddies and being totally gay for each other, and I would like to see them respected as well. However, this could be difficult to achieve without falling into the "sex, especially of the homoerotic variety, is dirtybadwrong!" trap. Maybe it would be easier somehow to see it all as a continuum from homosocial companionships to homosexual relations without worrying about at which exact point on that continuum a particular relationship might be.

And, well, there's definitely oodles of Aragorn/Boromir subtext in the FOTR movie, but I can't quite see them as shagging like bunnies on the trip through the wilderness. For reasons of logistics alone.

Byron: wenn Du Deutsch liest...

Und wenn es im Goldmann-Verlag erschienen ist, dann meinen wir wohl dasselbe Buch.

[sandrab79.livejournal.com]

Don´t even thinkt to say to arabian men, for example in Egypt, they appear gay or really could be gay, when they´re walking hand in hand in the public. You would get very, very, very big trouble. IMO the whole sexual content has become oversized in the last 10 years. The border between (only) very good friends and nowadays nearly automatically gay has become very, very low in the recent movie-productions. I´m not sure, that this is always an advantage for the whole story.

Incest of course is a different thing. If the love is so overwhelming, what shalls? In some european countries they´ve removed the most laws against it. The old Egyptians had no problems with such relationships, nearly all Pharaos had sex with their family (not only daughters and sisters to preserve the "holy, royal blood"). There are really awesome stories; I only say Amenophis IV. also called Echnaton...

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it doesn't say anything good about me that this made me want a really good Byron biography, because I didn't know that about him. =/

This post is very interesting.

I certainly thought a lot about it when I first started seeing the Peter/Nathan and then writing it. I think that the same things that appeal to me in any fictional romance are there in an incestuous fictional romance that appeals to me, and in many ways are there stronger. It's always the love-in-the-face-of-huge-obstacles thing that makes me interested in a love story, when those obstacles are as little as personality conflicts or as large as something like incest.

And I like it when the characters break upon those conflicts sometimes, which makes me like a good incest story, I guess. I like the tragedy of it.

So I think the taboo/forbidden thing isn't wrong, but it is reductive, it says, "what, gay guys aren't a big enough thrill anymore?" which kind of misses the point.

Thanks for this post!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

*g* And here I thought Byron/Augusta was old news to everyone. Biography wise, there was a recent one about two years ago but that was a bit too flashy and without real period sense for my taste. The classic one is by Leslie Marchand, but that one is unbelievably patronising towards Augusta.

My own two favourites among older biographies (i.e. both are from the 60s) are both by Malcolm Elwin:

"Lord Byron's Wife" and "Lord Byron's Family: Annnabella, Augusta and Ada".

Because Elwin often quotes whole letters from all parties concerned, had full access to all the Milbanke papers, really is great with conveying period and atmosphere and though focusing on Annabella and Augusta - whom he both portrays in a three dimensional way - also renders a great portrait of Byron.

Among recent publications, my favourite is "The Kindness of Sisters" by David Crane, which is only three years or so old and also terrific about the whole Augusta-Annabella-Byron triangle, even managing to bring bit players to life like the Reverend whom Annabella had with her when she wanted a confession from the dying Augusta during their last meeting.

If you're interested in Byron himself as a poet, though, I'd read Don Juan. Which is Byron at his best (and so not his, well, Byronic image), witty, brilliant, and never boring, and managing to turn clichés upside down everywhere. (For example, Don Juan isn't a big seducer but everyone's boytoy, and when he ends up in a harem in disguise, that archetypical macho fantasy, he does so because the Sultan fancied the boy, believing him a girl, AND the other girls are into him as a girl, too. Trust Byron to foil group sex fantasies by making the man into an object of lesbian desire.*g*

Plus, how can you not love an epic that starts with:

I want a hero: an uncommon want,
When every year and month sends forth a new one,
Till, after cloying the gazettes with cant,
The age discovers he is not the true one;
Of such as these I should not care to vaunt,
I'll therefore take our ancient friend Don Juan --

and then you have spot-on depictions of male teenagers like this one of Juan at 16:


He thought about himself, and the whole earth
Of man the wonderful, and of the stars,
And how the deuce they ever could have birth;
And then he thought of earthquakes, and of wars,
How many miles the moon might have in girth,
Of air-balloons, and of the many bars
To perfect knowledge of the boundless skies; --
And then he thought of Donna Julia's eyes.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.

I think that may be a legitimate reason for many people (possibly also why fanfic, where smut and slash are routine, is also the playground for far more explicit kink than pretty much any other written medium). But you know, really, I think that the reason that there's been such an upswing in people writing incest in fanfic is just that there's been more inspiration for it. Back in the 90s, watching Buffy, I wondered just why the heck every single character was an only child. Out of everyone in the Buffyverse, only Angel, Gunn, and Buffy herself have siblings -- two of them died with barely another reference, and Dawn only came about in the fifth season. There's kind of a family renaissance going on right now, where TV is just as interested in portraying family relationships as romances and friendships (if not more).

And, of course, it also doesn't hurt that you have examples like the movie Blades of Glory where Will Arnett and Amy Poehler (real life spouses) play siblings who lunge in for a kiss at the end of the movie before being stopped, or High School Musical which (from everything I've heard) featured fraternal twins who are seeking the leads for Romeo and Juliet.

Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext.

I can't quite remember when I was corrupted, but there's no denying that the writers intend for us to think something is not quite right with the Petrellis. Mob connections, megalomania, whatever, it doesn't really matter. The feel of the family is deliberately off. And, of course, the fact that they enjoy taunting the fans with lines about how "there's a dark secret in the Petrelli family" just convinces me more that they love messing with us.

do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark?

I think that's both the most common one where people go wrong, and also the one that circles back to point #1. Because, for a very long time, if you wanted to show that a character was eviiiiil and deviant, you made them gay or kinky. Now people make them incestuous. Which has the plus of actually being illegal and abusive, in addition to being taboo.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Back in the 90s, watching Buffy, I wondered just why the heck every single character was an only child.

Ohhhh, good point. It's true, Simon and River are the first siblings in the Jossverse who get introduced as siblings at the start of the show, neither of which gets killed off, and whose relationship is important to their show. And lo and behold, what happens in fanfic?

And, of course, the fact that they enjoy taunting the fans with lines about how "there's a dark secret in the Petrelli family" just convinces me more that they love messing with us.

I think that was settled for me as soon as I saw what kind of promo pictures they released for Fallout. I mean, come on (http://www.sparklies.org/gallery/albums/Heroes/Promo_photos/ep01x11%20-%20Fallout/Heroes_Ep1x11_Fallout_05.jpg)!

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

It's true, Simon and River are the first siblings in the Jossverse who get introduced as siblings at the start of the show, neither of which gets killed off, and whose relationship is important to their show. And lo and behold, what happens in fanfic?

Of course, it doesn't help that Joss not only says that every relationship can validly be interpreted as romantic, but also claims that he ships Simon/River. Oh, Joss.

Or that he used identical blocking for Wes/Fred in A Hole in the World as he did in nearly every Simon and River scene. Which I found icky and creepy more than anything, but clearly Joss doesn't mean that way.

I think that was settled for me as soon as I saw what kind of promo pictures they released for Fallout. I mean, come on!

Is it sad that I'm mostly just giggling about Milo's feet not touching the ground there because the bench is too high? But, yeah, how about a romance novel cove (http://www.heroes-pictures.com/albums/promotional/episodes/2x08/normal_NUP_110722_0586.jpg)r!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I need English vocabulary help: "blocking" means camera and actor positions?

Is it sad that I'm mostly just giggling about Milo's feet not touching the ground there because the bench is too high?

Those Texas cells. They're clearly not build for Italians.

Also, I see your romance novel cover and raise you a pieta (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/mimesh/heroes/c44ebf24.jpg) or two (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/mimesh/heroes/e2385a82.jpg) !

And we can always go back to the tendency someone in the production team has to figure out in how many episodes variations of The Wedding Photo can be displayed...

[suburbangoth.livejournal.com]

oh man. i'd totally forgotten how terrifying & creepy justin/iris was.

i still hate hbo for canceling that show.