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Jan. 16th, 2008 06:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakRandomly, while watching a season 3 House episode: so, does House get an incest case at least once per season? If so, are we sure David Shore isn’t the alias of a fanfic writer? (Come to think of it, the only time House has been wrong about suspecting incest was the case with the teenager having nightmares. This strengthens my suspicions about Shore.)
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
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Date: 2008-01-17 12:42 pm (UTC)Yeah, actor/camera positions and movement. There's a bit in AHitW where Fred is huddled against the headboard of her bed and Wes is perched on the end hands reaching toward her, which is pretty much the prototypical Simon-River pose, and it's shot just the same way.
Also, I see your romance novel cover and raise you a pieta or two!
*snicker* Ceiling!Matt peeking in from the corner in the first one never fails to make me laugh. :D
And we can always go back to the tendency someone in the production team has to figure out in how many episodes variations of The Wedding Photo can be displayed...
I wonder, is that a better job than the writer whose sole job it was to figure out a semi-plot relevant reason for Milo to take off his shirt? Or do you think that was the same person?
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 12:51 pm (UTC)*snicker* Ceiling!Matt peeking in from the corner in the first one never fails to make me laugh. :D
Fortunately enough, someone did turn one of the pieta pics into a romance novel cover (http://community.livejournal.com/heroes_macros/102076.html#cutid1).
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:01 pm (UTC)I wonder, is that a better job than the writer whose sole job it was to figure out a semi-plot relevant reason for Milo to take off his shirt? Or do you think that was the same person?
I suspect either Jesse Alexander (he has Alias experience for Significant Photos Showing Up) or Jeph Loeb (worked with Tim Sale in comics, where he found ever new excuses to show the pearls of Bruce Wayne's mother, hence wedding photos, worked on Smallville, hence suspect for shirtlessness) .
Or maybe Tim Kring just told the lot of them: "Look, we still have gazillion photos from the tux session Milo and Adrian did. I want to use those suckers!"
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:11 pm (UTC)Yet, anyway. Of course, Nathan does seem to like Matt so far, but that doesn't rule out Peter giving him dirt looks.
Or maybe Tim Kring just told the lot of them: "Look, we still have gazillion photos from the tux session Milo and Adrian did. I want to use those suckers!"
Or maybe it's a game like putting the helix symbol into the show! We'll know that when we start seeing the photo crop up in Hiro's cubicle and as Micah's screensaver.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:11 pm (UTC)Just wait till he hears Nathan has been flying with Matt. That'll do the trick.
Or maybe it's a game like putting the helix symbol into the show! We'll know that when we start seeing the photo crop up in Hiro's cubicle and as Micah's screensaver.
Ts. Hiro has the Elder photo (that's the other photo which turns up everywhere, even in Montreal - don't you love Adam being that attached to the old crowd?) in his cubicle, and Micah has the helix symbol as his screensaver, but I'm willing to bet that in the reporting about Nathan getting shot, one variation of the photo will appear in the Petrelli backstory, so either Claire will see it on tv or *insert other Heroes character* will read it in a magazine. Probably the "before" photo, not the after one or the one where Peter is whispering into Nathan's ear. (Repeat chorus of: what was the photographer thinking?)
Sidenote: when 12_12_12 made me write a dvd commentary for "Family Ways" I realized with amusement I smuggled the photo in there, too (Claire nicked it).
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:28 pm (UTC)And then he'll probably start with snide comments about weight and hurting Nathan's back. Because Peter really can be that passive aggressive.
(that's the other photo which turns up everywhere, even in Montreal - don't you love Adam being that attached to the old crowd?)
Especially since the photo was taken while he was imprisoned, so he must have swiped a copy from Maury once he started murdering. While, actually, considering that Maury has pieces of one laying around in Fight or Flight isn't that bad of continuity.
And, to be fair to Hiro, he found a copy in a box of records about Primatech.
so either Claire will see it on tv or *insert other Heroes character* will read it in a magazine. Probably the "before" photo, not the after one or the one where Peter is whispering into Nathan's ear. (Repeat chorus of: what was the photographer thinking?)
Probably not, unless the newscasters in that universe have a very strange sense of humor. I actually keep imaging Claire finding out about the shooting while watching MSN, with a newsticker at the bottom, so she'd probably just get the shooting itself a hundred times over. However, when she goes to the hospital to inject him with ~*~magic blood~*~, she'll obviously see the photos set up next to him. And Peter probably rocking out his own attempt at a hobo!beard.
Sidenote: when 12_12_12 made me write a dvd commentary for "Family Ways" I realized with amusement I smuggled the photo in there, too (Claire nicked it).
Scarily enough, so did I in "(No) Shots Fired." I said she took more than one photo, but I definitely meant that the wedding photo was one of them.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:38 pm (UTC)Also, we're still due a parallel scene to Nathan's hospital scene with Simone, remember!
Re: Maury, this reminds me - why do you think, given that Maury has his type of power, does he submit to Adam and never went for the top job back in the past? (And rather insultingly, both Bob and Angela immediately deduce that Maury can't be more than the instrument.) Is he just a born beta?
Don't scare me with the image of bearded!Peter.
Scarily enough, so did I in "(No) Shots Fired." I said she took more than one photo, but I definitely meant that the wedding photo was one of them.
We're clearly attuned to the creators' minds when it comes to the Petrellis.*g*
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 04:14 pm (UTC)You know, between that , Peter freaking out and mourning Nathan in some way, and his inevitable sparking of Elle (and probable some more), they have a lot of book end scenes they need to get cracking on.
Is he just a born beta?
I think so, really. He's a con man, so he doesn't have ideas of his own. He just knows how to reflect back the ideas of other people in shinier or more horrific ways, depending on what he's after. Now, admittedly, creating nightmares for people on his own wouldn't be as effective, but it all does fit together pretty well. The funny part, of course, is that he's equally getting conned by Adam who is seemingly giving him the respect he clearly wants that no one else will.
Don't scare me with the image of bearded!Peter.
Hey, I saw pics of Milo with a beard not that long ago! He actually looked fine. It's the stages between having a full beard and stubble that look completely horrific on him.
We're clearly attuned to the creators' minds when it comes to the Petrellis.*g*
It's funny 'cause it's true! Down to predicting about half of the 0.07% post-death conversation! :D
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:44 pm (UTC)This reminds me of that one interview with Milo and Adrian, where Milo said at some point that flying with him was definitely better for Adrian than flying with Greg all the time. Obviously, he was gearing up for his role here.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 04:01 pm (UTC)Oh yeah. But I would really love to see Matt interacting with both brothers and Peter getting jealous because Matt and Nathan bonded when he was busy being Adam's pet. I want to see Matt and the Petrellis taking down the company. That's why I hope that
And Peter probably rocking out his own attempt at a hobo!beard.
Bwahah. Imagining Peter with a beard had me laughing out loud but then I remembered that I saw pictures of Milo with some fuzz. No competition (http://i15.tinypic.com/6twthrb.jpg) for the Pasbeard (http://i1.tinypic.com/89smrgw.jpg) though...
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 04:18 pm (UTC)Imagining Peter with a beard had me laughing out loud but then I remembered that I saw pictures of Milo with some fuzz. No competition for the Pasbeard though...
See, it's not that bad! It's mostly the glasses and hilarious expressions!
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 05:42 pm (UTC)Hey, maybe they'll pay me for it! (Well, me and the dozen or so other people who came up with the idea. And Jack Coleman of course.)