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Jan. 16th, 2008 06:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakRandomly, while watching a season 3 House episode: so, does House get an incest case at least once per season? If so, are we sure David Shore isn’t the alias of a fanfic writer? (Come to think of it, the only time House has been wrong about suspecting incest was the case with the teenager having nightmares. This strengthens my suspicions about Shore.)
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
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Date: 2008-01-16 08:29 pm (UTC)On the one hand, I don't want to blame her (or any other people, for that matter) for a fic-reading kink when she's perfectly capable of distinguishing between fanfiction and reality; on the other hand, I feel a little uncomfortable about turning an affectionate, even sort of touchy-feely relationship between brothers into something sexual. The emotions between siblings can, IMO, be intense and even screwed up while being completely non-sexual in nature.
Moreover, the treatment of incest pairings like any other slash pairing creeps me out somehow. Not only does it belittle the disturbing emotional impact of incest, but the "incest is the new slash!" slogan (which my friend has never used, though -- thank goodness), even if meant as some sort of flippant joke, seems to point at some rather strange views on non-incestuous same-sex relationships.
Still, I have read a few incest fics myself (Boromir/Faramir and Angel/Connor, to be precise), despite all my misgivings. I found these stories -- who were all written by authors whose other stuff I'd read before I clicked on these -- really well-written, but I simultaneously was squicking myself out in the process of reading them. So I'm not sure what to think...
And if you are talking about the book about Byron I think you might be talking about, I guess I have to thank you and your take on sibling incest for sparking some interest in Byron in me during my teenage years. That was definitely a beneficial result of sibcest RPF. :)
(Edited because I can't type.)
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Date: 2008-01-16 08:50 pm (UTC)Oh, absolutely. One of my favourite non'cesty (as in: don't see it, don't think it was, don't think author who first attracted my attention to relationship thought it was, either) historical sibling relationships is the one between medieval brothers Llewelyn ap Gryffyd and his brother Davydd. Heavily featured in novels of Sharon Penman and Ellis Peters (writing as Edith Pargeter), and if one looks at that pattern of betrayals, reconciliations against all the odds etc, which the novelist didn't invent but the historians tell us about, it must have been an incredibly intense.
Re: the translation of physical affection between men into sexual attraction, that easily happens in any visual medium among fans these days, and yes, in a way it's a pity. Otoh, personally I made it through all three LotR movies (I read the books eons ago, way before discovering slash) without the physical male affection which was very present there, too, letting me see subtext. (Except between Aragorn and Boromir, but even then I couldn't see Aragorn cheating on Arwen, so in my head, it remained unspoken attraction.) So I hope I'm still able to see two men being affectionate towards each other without automatically concluding there's sex in the offering (incesteous or not). Re: Nathan and Peter in Heroes, like I said, I don't write them as lovers, but I have no problem with reading fanfic that presents them as same, if it's well written and the transition made plausible.
Byron: wenn Du Deutsch liest...
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 09:09 pm (UTC)Re: the translation of physical affection between men into sexual attraction, that easily happens in any visual medium among fans these days, and yes, in a way it's a pity.
Yes, indeed. There are so many nuances of romantic friendship between being best buddies and being totally gay for each other, and I would like to see them respected as well. However, this could be difficult to achieve without falling into the "sex, especially of the homoerotic variety, is dirtybadwrong!" trap. Maybe it would be easier somehow to see it all as a continuum from homosocial companionships to homosexual relations without worrying about at which exact point on that continuum a particular relationship might be.
And, well, there's definitely oodles of Aragorn/Boromir subtext in the FOTR movie, but I can't quite see them as shagging like bunnies on the trip through the wilderness. For reasons of logistics alone.
Byron: wenn Du Deutsch liest...
Und wenn es im Goldmann-Verlag erschienen ist, dann meinen wir wohl dasselbe Buch.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:35 am (UTC)Incest of course is a different thing. If the love is so overwhelming, what shalls? In some european countries they´ve removed the most laws against it. The old Egyptians had no problems with such relationships, nearly all Pharaos had sex with their family (not only daughters and sisters to preserve the "holy, royal blood"). There are really awesome stories; I only say Amenophis IV. also called Echnaton...