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Jan. 16th, 2008 06:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
selenakRandomly, while watching a season 3 House episode: so, does House get an incest case at least once per season? If so, are we sure David Shore isn’t the alias of a fanfic writer? (Come to think of it, the only time House has been wrong about suspecting incest was the case with the teenager having nightmares. This strengthens my suspicions about Shore.)
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
Which is as good a place as any to do the obligatory “my take on incest in multifandom” post which everyone seems to write sooner or later. I’m afraid mine will be a bit boring, but here it goes. (Oh, yeah: spoilers for Carnivale, Twin Peaks, Jacobean drama and Romantic poet drama of the rl variety, no spoilers for Heroes, Supernatural and three shows created by Joss Whedon beyond basic character constellations.)
1) Having written about Byron and his sister Augusta at 19, I really don’t have a read/write about incest squick level per se, and definitely am not in a position to throw stones about anyone’s interest in writing or reading about it.
2) I suspect people’s theories about incest being the new slash in the sense that people need taboos for their pairing to break and same-sex relationships don’t really cut it for them anymore are probably true for some of the writers, but I’m always hesitant to sweepingly ascribe motives to lots of people I don’t know, not even in the sense of knowing their writing.
3) As with non-incest pairings, sometimes I see the subtext and sometimes I don’t. This seems to be random on my part. For example, based on one season of Supernatural - which will in all likelihood remain the only one, since I wasn’t that captivate – I just don’t see it with the Winchesters (in any combinations). While an overwhelming majority of fandom obviously does. And in the Jossverse, I see it only with the Fanged Four (who aren’t biologically related, but the shows obviously don’t use line like “I’m your son’s other mother” (Drusilla to Anne) or Darla calling Angel her “darling boy” without intention). No Crazy Space Incest for me, sorry. (Not least because River/Anybody has a squick level for me due to her mental state, and Simon is so very protective of her.) Otoh, I started to get an inkling of where the Petrellicesters in Heroes were coming from around episode 1.07 and somewhere between 1.10 and 1.13, I thought, fine, yes, there is deliberate subtext. Now, being a gen writer by talent and inclination, this did not result in me writing Nathan/Peter slash, but I read it now and then. (There is also the problem of there being hardly any gen stories about either Petrelli, but then there are hardly any gen stories about any Heroes character, as I found out when looking for Matt and Mohinder fic this season, and Claire stories that don’t pair her up with anyone, full stop. Since I believe in doing something instead of complaining, I did my share to heighten the quota of gen Petrelli tales as well non-‘shippy Claire fiction, Matt gen and Mohinder gen.)
4) And then there is canon incest, by which I mean you don’t have to agree on whether or not you see the subtext because the book/show/film doesn’t leave room for ambiguity anymore. This more often than not means an intergenerational sexual abuse story (Laura and Leland Palmer in Twin Peaks come to mind). More rarely, it’s a tragic sibling romance. (Check out your Jacobean dramas: ’Tis Pity She is A Whore, John Ford.) And even more rarely, it’s neither abusive nor tragic, just messed up. The couple on my icon, Justin and Iris Crowe from Carnivale, being a case in point. Justin and Iris are also rare in that they’re middle aged and the fact they’re sexually attracted to each other is actually one of the least disturbing things about them. I like my canon incest in the way I like my characterisation in general: are those people interesting, is their relationship plausible or do I get the impression the incest is just there because the writer couldn’t think of anything else and wanted to be daring/deep/dark? Which means in the three cases I mentioned: yes, it is and they are (the Palmers, that is), people complaining about Romeo and Juliet being stupid should take a look at these two (never got the point of Ford), and damm you, Knauf, if you had to dumb down Justin into a one dimensional evil blacker-than-black villain in season 2, couldn’t you at least given us more middle-aged sibling kissing instead of frightened maid(en)s?
5) And to return to the beginning. One of the reasons why I wrote about Byron and Augusta back when I was 19 (which will be 19 years ago this year, yikes) was because he wrote her the following letter from self-imposed exile: I have never ceased nor can cease to feel for a moment that boundless attachment which bound & binds me to you, which renders me incapable of real love for any other human being – what could they be to me after you? We may have been wrong – but I repent of nothing except that cursed marriage - & your refusing to continue to love me as you had loved me – I can neither forget nor quite forgive you for that precious piece of reformation. But I can never be other than I have been – and whenever I love anything it reminds me of some way of you. That, and the fact that when they were together, what he loved most about her was that she laughed both with and about him instead of going with his self dramatizations. Passion and shared laughter. It’s a combination that sounds irresistible when you’re 19, and not just then.
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Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-16 09:41 pm (UTC)Ah, fandom. So reliable that way. (This reminds me again of all the hate directed against Kristen Bell before Elle showed up on Heroes but after it was announced she would; as far as I could see, it seemed to come nearly exclusively from disgruntled V/L'shippers, didn't it?)
And yeah, given that this was before SPN, the fury about V being Aaron's kid would have destroyed the internet. Or well, TWOP at least.
Now you're making me regret that she wasn't, because in search of House reviews I checked on the TWOP ones and yeah, good old hatred for female characters ahoy. Comes complete with actress bashings.
On a lighter note, I remember a lot of DW fans being very worried because for some reason, they were scared RTD would make the Master the Doctor's brother, and there was much earnest soul searching about who would be ready to write incest fic and who wouldn't if that was the case. And advance Rusty hate. And then we got that marvellous exchange between the Doctor and Martha on the subject. *veg*
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-16 09:56 pm (UTC)You could probably say that, even though I never got how one could viciously hate Veronica and ship Logan/Veronica at the same time. (VM fandom was a little scary in the end, as most of the sane people had either left or moved to safer parts of the net. Heroes is really remarkably mellow compared to that.)
Now you're making me regret that she wasn't, because in search of House reviews I checked on the TWOP ones and yeah, good old hatred for female characters ahoy. Comes complete with actress bashings.
Oh, I know. I mean, I still go there, I have a couple of friends on the Heroes board and I like some of the recappers, but it's not like it has become less problematic.
I remember a lot of DW fans being very worried because for some reason, they were scared RTD would make the Master the Doctor's brother, and there was much earnest soul searching about who would be ready to write incest fic and who wouldn't if that was the case.
I'm not incredibly fond of either Who fandom, but that was kind of cute.
And advance Rusty hate.
Isn't that mandatory by now? Not that he hasn't given some rather unfortunate interviews lately, but I don't remember a point where the Rusty hate wasn't alive and well.
And then we got that marvellous exchange between the Doctor and Martha on the subject. *veg*
Wasn't that also a dig at the TV movie? I remember the brother thing being almost canon somewhere, but then getting cut.
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-16 10:14 pm (UTC)Sounds like what a part of BTVS fandom did with with Spike and Buffy. I never got that either. But I think the rationale as presented on message boards was "he wants her, so he should have her, but I totally hate her if she's not with him". Really really scary (and disturbing). Mind you, there were also a lot of Spike/Buffy 'shippers who truly loved both characters (I have someon my flist - as for myself, I'm ship-neutral when it comes to Buffy - well, except for a slight penchant for Buffy/Faith...), but the Buffy the character haters were really vocal. Someone told me that a lot of Buffy-hating Spike/Buffy 'shippers wandered of to VM fandom to ship Veronica/Logan, so we might be talking about the same people!
Isn't that mandatory by now? Not that he hasn't given some rather unfortunate interviews lately, but I don't remember a point where the Rusty hate wasn't alive and well.
Err, when New Who started?
Wasn't that also a dig at the TV movie? I remember the brother thing being almost canon somewhere, but then getting cut.
I think
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-16 10:37 pm (UTC)I know they are in certain cases, so I guess there were quite a few issues inherited.
I think my general contacts in VM fandom beyond the website I worked with were both pro-Veronica and pro-Logan, and liked the other characters as well, specifically Mac and Beaver. I didn't have much contact with the Sheriff Lamb fans, mostly because the actor seriously rubbed me the wrong way, but I guess they could be called a "neutral block," who was mostly pro-Veronica, too.
(Personally, I have little love for Logan and don't quite understand the accolades for the actor, but it's very possible that this was influenced by everything that went down in fandom during Season Two.)
Err, when New Who started?
I thought maybe it was during QAF, but I have no idea how he was perceived back then.
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-17 02:49 pm (UTC)Sadly, there is a version of this phenomenon in almost every fandom I have ever been involved in.
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-17 07:02 pm (UTC)Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-21 04:07 am (UTC)*waves* Most of us fled for non-crazy parts after we realized that a good proportion of our fellow shippers hated 1/2 of our ship. I've never understood that.
Isn't that mandatory by now? Not that he hasn't given some rather unfortunate interviews lately, but I don't remember a point where the Rusty hate wasn't alive and well.
Err, when New Who started?
I remember someone telling me that a certain segment of Classic Who fans were terrified of what RTD was going to do to their show. I think I even remember hearing some old interview of someone whose name I don't remember who actually stated that they preferred that Who not be brought back at all if it was Rusty that was doing it.
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-21 06:10 am (UTC)I think I even remember hearing some old interview of someone whose name I don't remember who actually stated that they preferred that Who not be brought back at all if it was Rusty that was doing it.
Entirely possible, as fannish arguments about producers predate New Who by decades. (I remember
Re: P.S.
Date: 2008-01-17 04:00 pm (UTC)In reverse chronology:
The McGann TVM was the eventual result of a plan for a US Who series which in its earlier versions would have been an entirely new continuity in which the Doctor and the Master were brothers, although all of this was forgotten when they decided to keep it in the old continuity.
In the Peter Davison story Planet Of Fire the Doctor, in one of his sterner moods, tries to incinerate the Master, causing the Master to beg "How can you do this to your own... AAAARGH". It has been widely rumoured that the line was originally intended to end "...brother" but that the then creative team thought better of it at the last minute. If the line is acknowledged by fans at all, conservative fans assume that it would have ended "...kind" or "old school pal", while slashers go straight for "...boyfriend".
Going way back it is generally agreed that if Roger Delgado had not been killed in a car crash the Third Doctor's final story would have been one in which the Master redemptively sacrificed his own life permanently to give the Doctor a chance to regenerate and survive. Some rumours have it that it would have been revealed that the Master was the Doctor's brother, others that there would have been a more mystical connection between them.
I interpret the "You've watched too much TV" line in "Sound Of Drums" as mocking the original McGann plan and US TV's tendency to turn everything into a fraternal or father/son story, altohugh some anti-RTD types weirdly interpret it as an insult against online fandom.